michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

bateleur wrote:
Very true. So you're correct that it's not really Turing Complete. On the other hand, any soluble DROD level must correspond to a computation that does actually terminate and therefore uses only a finite amount of workspace. So in fact the consequences for solvers remain much the same assuming one enters each level with the certain knowledge that it can be solved somehow.

If you know that it can be solved, the Halting Problem doesn't come into it. What consequences do you mean?

(And your statement sounds a bit suspect anyway. The theory of Computability deals entirely with infinite machines and manages not to be completely irrelevant to real computers, noted for their finiteness.)

I know what you mean. Sure, statements about infinte structures often imply statements about finite structures. The various compactness theorems, for instance. I just don't see that kind of idea here. What does the uncomputability of infinite/"arbitrary" DROD tell us about real DROD?

Anyway, all I'm saying is that if you go:"DROD is Turing Complete" it sounds like you mean real DROD, not some extension that turns it into a very different game.

halyavin
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 52
Registered: 02-20-2006
IP: Logged

BTW, Are someone knows Just-In-Time compiled script engines? I have an idea to add one to my DROD-solver in order to reduce recompiling but script engine must be fast . I can imagine only using fasm (Flat Assembler) + manual loading of .obj, .o or .dll files.

---

[Last edited by halyavin at 01-17-2007 12:31 PM]

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

halyavin wrote:
BTW, Are someone knows Just-In-Time compiled script engines?

Well, since JDK 1.6 you can use the javax.tools package to invoke javac from within your program - why not use that if your program already uses Java?

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

halyavin
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 52
Registered: 02-20-2006
IP: Logged

Scripts need to be invoked from pascal code. I think it would be too slow to call pascal code for all data of pascal object script needed. And there is no way to call JVM from native-created thread . I need to change multithreading architecture of my program in order to use that.

halyavin
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 52
Registered: 02-20-2006
IP: Logged

BTW, with some more advanced heuristics I have a 581-move computer demo now. Michintro, can you achieve this ?

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

I really don't feel like trying. Ask Rabscuttle and Syntax.

Can your program solve that room all by itself?

Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
IP: Logged

michthro wrote:
I really don't feel like trying. Ask Rabscuttle and Syntax.

Heh. I wish you'd feel that way about those rooms I'm trying to wrestle from your firm grip... that 46 turns in Prince of Puzzles just blows my mind.

halyavin
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 52
Registered: 02-20-2006
IP: Logged

michthro wrote:
I really don't feel like trying. Ask Rabscuttle and Syntax.

Ok.

Can your program solve that room all by itself?

No, of course. Universal AI haven't created yet.

I am thinking about adding interactivity and therefore improve productivity of using drod solver. The most usefull tools are those which interacts with human in order to achieve the best results in complex and big problems.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

Alneyan wrote:
Heh. I wish you'd feel that way about those rooms I'm trying to wrestle from your firm grip...

It's so much more fun competing against humans. You didn't seem to have much trouble wresting that room in Dugan's Dungeon Revisited from me. And there's another one in Bavato's dungeon I must still look at..

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

Oh, wait. I see what you mean now.. Rabs! Syntax! Alneyan took some #1s off me. I don't feel like replaying them. Please help!

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2520
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

How long are they?

---

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 01-23-2007 12:46 AM]

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

Ah, heck. Way too short for you to be interested. 143 and 239.

Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
IP: Logged

Rabscuttle wrote:
How long are they?

Point taken. I'll concentrate on challenging *one* of you, instead of *asking* for the whole pack to jump on me. That, or I'll just try some reverse psychology... Hey, that 199 is so amazing I'm sure even Micthro couldn't come anywhere near that!

It's fun fighting against the big guns, though. Utterly inefficient, but fun. Except for the migraines (199 on *that* room. Can't fathom how to do that).

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2520
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

File: RabscuttleScores24012007.zip (168.5 KB)
Downloaded 55 times.
License: Public Domain

uh, michthro made me do it?

No, I think I really am a big jerk. (myscores attached if anyone wants revenge)

The one in Return to Dugan's Dungeon looks pretty solid though.

I reckon 199 is still beatable (with the strategy that I am using) if you can kill the roaches more efficiently. Although I do wait for spawn in one or two places, so maybe that won't help. There's probably some way of killing the last queens without waiting for the spawn but it's a pain without checkpoints. (especially when your girlfriend takes over your laptop just because her computer crashed completely and she's finishing her PhD.)

---

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 01-24-2007 12:33 AM : zip atttacchhhh]

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

Um, thanks, Rabs? I didn't think you'd actually go and track it down...

Alneyan wrote:
...or I'll just try some reverse psychology... Hey, that 199 is so amazing I'm sure even Micthro couldn't come anywhere near that!

You're right. I'm not going to even try. But seeing that the guy in 2nd place was beaten by 40 moves, it will probably be easier to compete against him. I'll go look for his #1s.

EDIT: Had a go at it anyway. Ah, well. Probably a bit in it still. Getting one more queen before the last batch would save quite a few moves.

---

[Last edited by michthro at 01-24-2007 10:50 AM]

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2520
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

argh! five minutes too late!

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

pheeww.. Just in time.

halyavin
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 52
Registered: 02-20-2006
IP: Logged

And luckily I haven't downloaded this hold and so I can't run drod-solver for this room .

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2520
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

I think I have more choice with the final queens, but it doesn't seem to help. Anyway, gf is stealing back my computer.

I'll get you next time Gadget michthro. Next time!

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3336
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Hey, if you're discussing optimising strategies, you should start another one of These Topics, instead of hijacking this one!

I doubt I'll be using my turn in a while, anyway. Too many other things right now. Maybe after two weeks or so...

---

[Last edited by Doom at 01-24-2007 02:05 PM]

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

Optimising tip of the week: Make sure your gf has her own computer.

Ok, ok, sorry. I'll try not to go off-topic again. If anyone comes across a good candidate, feel free to start a new "Optimise this" thread.

Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
IP: Logged

Do I get a bumper "I got pwn3d by Michtro and friends"? I s'ppose losing several #1s just to retain one of them does not qualify as a win.

This might be on-topic, though. It might just be easier to device a Drod solver than to actually fight against the top optimisers on your own. So, I'll order those of those, thank you very much.

---

[Last edited by Alneyan at 01-24-2007 07:04 PM]

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

How about a bumper sticker that says "I fought michthro and won!"? I nabbed 2 rooms from him that he hasn't tried to take back yet, and 3 that he took back immediately. I consider this a victory.

Edit: Just noticed that he did in fact take back one of the 2 I thought I had. Maybe a bumper sticker that says "Dammit michthro."

____________________________

---

[Last edited by zex20913 at 01-24-2007 07:44 PM]

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
IP: Logged

File: michthro.JPG (183.6 KB)
Downloaded 521 times.
License: Public Domain

Friendships can occasionally be hard things to maintain... This goes on uninterrupted for 3 pages

---

[Last edited by Syntax at 01-26-2007 12:56 PM]

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

I'm sorry, Syntax. You're looking at it the wrong way, though. Count yourself lucky that for some reason no-one else ever takes a #1 off you. I have a wide variety of visitors to my lost #1s page. If you had more different names on that page, it would only mean you've lost more #1s. Would that make you feel better?

Come on, people! Don't be so scared of Syntax. Let's spice up his life with a little variety.

PS grrrrr.. I see Rabs got his computer back.

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
IP: Logged

Nah it's cool. Your logic is flawed there though (for perhaps he first time?). My issue is that with all these names, I'm no longer sure who to target.

Oh wait

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Syntax--fixed. For probably a millisecond or so, now.

____________________________

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2520
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

I fixed it too.

(big jerk etc.)

halyavin
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 52
Registered: 02-20-2006
IP: Logged

I am currently testing Tar support. This is a nightmare: a huge number of bugs have been already found...

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

halyavin wrote:
This is a nightmare: a huge number of bugs have been already found...

Bah. Just apply the roach algorithm to them.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator