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KevG
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icon Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+8)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
What we should do, is every week or so pick a room to bash our heads against. We'll get some well-optimised rooms out of it, both from the competition, and from the "two heads are better than one" principle. We can discuss strategies and so on, which might make for some interesting reading, as well as encouraging others.

I reckon we should start with KDD2:L8:2S2E, seeing as Stuart has now found time to fix my imperfection. :) Except I've just realised that cleaning out the middle section isn't necessary.


Current standings:
1. 270 michthro
2. 296 Stuart K
3. 304 Rabscuttle
4. 321 KevG
5. 369 Doom

02-21-2006 at 02:25 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  


I don't think the room changed from King Dugan's Dungeon to King Dugan's Dungeon 2. If it has, however, the above image is from KDD non-2.0.

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02-21-2006 at 02:58 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Heh, I was going to post this, except I couldn't decide what to write. :D

I've managed to shave 3 more moves off michthro's to get it down to 267 - one just before entering the mother's room and two on the way back out through the second chamber. I'm a bit sloppier in an earlier part, but the tar rhythm means it doesn't matter.

I don't know if it's possible to clear even less tar in the second chamber - I'm one move short getting out of the three width room. :/

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 02-21-2006 03:24 PM]
02-21-2006 at 03:19 PM
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Dali
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
I've managed to shave 3 more moves off michthro's to get it down to 267


I would love to see this. Replayed that room and done 406 moves at my first try in AE :thumbsdown
maybe I'll replay it later.
02-21-2006 at 06:29 PM
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KevG
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
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Dali wrote:
I would love to see this. Replayed that room and done 406 moves at my first try in AE :thumbsdown
maybe I'll replay it later.

406 is really good. The best score not set today is Wallu's 422.
02-21-2006 at 07:14 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Heh, I was going to post this, except I couldn't decide what to write. :D

I've managed to shave 3 more moves off michthro's to get it down to 267 - one just before entering the mother's room and two on the way back out through the second chamber. I'm a bit sloppier in an earlier part, but the tar rhythm means it doesn't matter.

I don't know if it's possible to clear even less tar in the second chamber - I'm one move short getting out of the three width room. :/

I will admit I had a look at your demo, and couldn't improve on it at all. The best I could do was a variation on your idea - your efficiency meant you had to wait on one or two squares, which I used to perform a similar, but less efficient solution without penalty.

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02-21-2006 at 10:55 PM
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Rabscuttle
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E near miss.demo (2 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+1)  
High Score page link

quote:
agaricus5 wrote:
I will admit I had a look at your demo, and couldn't improve on it at all. The best I could do was a variation on your idea - your efficiency meant you had to wait on one or two squares, which I used to perform a similar, but less efficient solution without penalty.


Most of the credit should go to michthro, especially that nifty exit from the first chamber. And yeah, tar destruction when there's a mother can be forgiving (although not as forgiving as snake loops or waiting for a complete spawn cycle).

Check out the attached demo - if one move could be saved somewhere, I think it knocks a couple of moves off the exit trip.

Fun Optimisation Technique #1: When hacking your way through a 3-width tar-filled corridor when there is a tar mother in the room, make sure that you are hitting the tar when it expands. This will stop the tar from expanding towards you and forcing you to clear the same squares twice.


[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 02-22-2006 05:08 AM : warning: previewing something attachments something]
02-22-2006 at 05:06 AM
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gamer_extreme_101
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+1)  
Wonderful idea, everyone! I've created a page on the site (Here, to be exact.) that will link to the topic for the week, the picture of the room, and the high scores. This way, hopefully we can get some lurkers and non-forumnites sent your way and to give these strategy sessions a shot!

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02-22-2006 at 05:43 AM
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michthro
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E one move.demo (2.3 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
This is one of those horrible situations where I can find a hundred ways to be one move short, but no joy. Attached is another demo, where one move earlier on will put you in the same position as Rabscuttle, except no baby will spawn in the entrance to the second chamber, which should do the trick. Can anyone pull it off?
02-22-2006 at 09:15 AM
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StuartK
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E not quite.demo (2.7 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Here's another 'not quite' demo, this time achieving Michthros set objective, at the expense of another. I could clean up before moving onto the tar mother, but that would still make the demo overall longer.

Perhaps there's some kind of trick in the first chamber, that allows both the passages above and below it to remain open.
02-22-2006 at 10:31 AM
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michthro
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E another approach.demo (2.6 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+1)  
quote:
StuartK wrote:
Perhaps there's some kind of trick in the first chamber, that allows both the passages above and below it to remain open.
See if you can do something with this.
02-22-2006 at 11:15 AM
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bibelot
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E similar.demo (2.5 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+1)  
Here's a similar strategy for keeping the chambers full. Fairly fast, but doesn't look too promising (especially since the left side doesn't look like it wants to be cleared out).
02-22-2006 at 08:40 PM
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Pinnacle
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Wonderful idea, everyone! I've created a page on the site (Here, to be exact.) that will link to the topic for the week, the picture of the room, and the high scores. This way, hopefully we can get some lurkers and non-forumnites sent your way and to give these strategy sessions a shot!


Should it be stickied, too?

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02-22-2006 at 08:56 PM
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StuartK
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E Victory.demo (2.8 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
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bibelot wrote:
Here's a similar strategy for keeping the chambers full. Fairly fast, but doesn't look too promising (especially since the left side doesn't look like it wants to be cleared out).

Very neat :)

I get just under 300 moves, allowing tar babies to spawn in the top left corner. If I clear that corner before approaching the tar mother, I net 285 moves, but to do so I have to fiddle around in the centre a bit, meaning I'm reaching the tar mother near the same time as with the 267 move solution, but exiting still takes longer with the additional and awkward placement of the remaining tar babies.

I've attached the 285 move demo. It can probably be improved, but not to the point where it matches or exceeds 267, I confidently predict :)
02-23-2006 at 12:24 AM
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larrymurk
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
I remember playing this and just being happy to complete it at all. A few more save pts. mighta been nice..
02-23-2006 at 12:37 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
quote:
Pinnacle wrote:
quote:
gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Wonderful idea, everyone! I've created a page on the site (Here, to be exact.) that will link to the topic for the week, the picture of the room, and the high scores. This way, hopefully we can get some lurkers and non-forumnites sent your way and to give these strategy sessions a shot!


Should it be stickied, too?

Actually, I think a new board is a better idea. Once we've completed optimising a room, it will fade into obscurity and end up hidden from players who might be otherwise interested in our optimisation strategies. Also, we could then add a warning that anything in the board is very spoilerish, and not intended for players who haven't finished the rooms yet.

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02-23-2006 at 01:07 AM
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gamer_extreme_101
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Or, I could do something along the lines of, oh, this at the end of every week so that we could have an archive of these without creating a brand-new board for such reason. That way, we can have the information organized, presentable, and easier to find.

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02-23-2006 at 04:41 AM
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Doom
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Technically, the standings before the challenge are already wrong, because many of those scores were made after the creation of this topic. Including my demo - I was at about 512 moves before this challenge. (Actually, my demo wasn't even up, because of a currently missing feature called reuploading all demos on your player file)

Also, it seems almost pointless to list all after-challenge demos, because people can just see the demo, and failing to find any mistakes with it just complete the room with the same strategy themselves. The first place move amount is really all that matters. It shows how much we were able to improve the original best solution.
02-23-2006 at 05:09 AM
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Rabscuttle
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E too slow.demo (2.2 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
I don't think the standings are really important (especially if the 'after' is just going to be the same score repeated 5 times :/). I'd much rather see a list of progressive improvements to the room, like I described in the UU thread.

So..

Best before: 25/7/2005 10:02pm: Rabscuttle: 389
21/2/2006 6:00pm: StuartK: 381
21/2/2006 8:54pm: Rabscuttle: 330
21/2/2006 9:03pm: Rabscuttle: 304
21/2/2006 11:08pm: StuartK: 296
22/2/2006 12:07am: michthro: 270
22/2/2006 1:49am: Rabscuttle: 268
22/2/2006 2:03am: Rabscuttle: 267
Best after: ?

Those times might not all be from the same timezone. :/

The information might be obtainable from the high score database, if old data isn't overwritten.

==

Anyway, back to the room. I think that it's probably not worth it to keep tar in the first chamber. The orb position means you end up with extra tar babies to get rid of, and I reckon that'll add at least 10 moves to the exit journey. There's also the extra constraint of not blocking off the first door, which means there's less time to prevent babies forming in the top left (as Stuart noted) I did do a rough run through where I just ignored the top-left babies, but still ended up with too many moves.

edit: added demo. 275, although probably not optimal.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 02-23-2006 07:35 AM]
02-23-2006 at 07:00 AM
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michthro
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
I'm with Doom and Rabscuttle on the standings, i.e. this isn't about standings. It isn't a contest, and the challenge is to improve the best score, not equal it. We want to put our heads together and co-operatively optimise a room, so the idea is to look at demos rather than waste time reinventing the wheel. Given that, there's very little point in uploading 1st place tie demos.

So I'd rather see Rabscuttle's progressive list than the current before/after standings.
02-23-2006 at 07:59 AM
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KevG
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Those standings weren't intended to be pre-contest standings; I simply included the best I could before they changed. I didn't want to lose possibly interesting information, but said information doesn't really appear all that interesting in hind-sight. Feel free to pretend they aren't there; I'd edit them out but that seems like it would cause more confusion.
02-23-2006 at 05:14 PM
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bibelot
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File: KDD20 Eighth Level 2S2E so close.demo (2.5 KB)
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Here's another approach that's not quite good enough. If there's an extra move to be found, it should save a couple moves overall due to easier cleanup.
02-23-2006 at 10:35 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Hmm.. how should we decide which room to do next?

*picks a number between 1 and 5965*

edit: randomness = not so good.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 02-26-2006 04:39 AM]
02-26-2006 at 03:50 AM
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michthro
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+3)  
Here's one you'll like, Rabscuttle: KDD: L16: Entrance. There are only a couple of moves in it (unless I'm missing something), but it would be interesting to see it done. If you could clear some tar around the entrance as well, it would save some moves when exiting (have a look at my demo and you'll see what I mean). Not sure if it's worth a whole week's optimising, but have a look, and start a new topic if it looks interesting.
02-26-2006 at 08:31 AM
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Mikko
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
I have basically done no move optimising since the competition back on AE. I had a go at this room, but quickly realised that I have to practice a lot before getting such low scores. Optimising does indeed require a different approach than just solving the rooms.

Anyway, one room that I think has potential for this kind of thing is JtRH: Level 16 - 2S2E
02-26-2006 at 09:06 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
The trouble with L16:Ent is that it's too easy to mess up the roach order :/ There might be a way to save a move or two by clearing some more tar before the spawn before the orb.

Actually, your demo is fairly stable as far as the roaches go. Just the first 20 or so moves, then a wait during the lead north are all that is needed. (Of course, there's still the matter of clearing it efficiently)

Hmm...

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 02-26-2006 12:08 PM : adding sense]
02-26-2006 at 09:48 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
urgh.

Saved two, lost one for a net gain of one move. There's maybe one more that could be saved, perhaps :/

Probably not worth spending a week on it - I'd also rather have something besides tar again.



[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 02-26-2006 11:10 AM]
02-26-2006 at 11:08 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
If you're willing to listen to me, who has absolutely no highscore experience, I pick The Killing Jar 3 South.



It's a brained queen room with a lot of different possible approaches, so I bet you guys would definitely be able to figure out a good way to do this quickly. Of course, that's just my opinion - I have no facts to base this on other than the room.

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02-26-2006 at 03:10 PM
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michthro
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (0)  
Not too bad an idea, Chaco, but the room seems to already have been pretty well optimised (you can usually tell that from the #1 score belonging to agaricus5). I found 3 moves, and there may be one or two more, but I don't think it's worth a week's optimising.

P.S. Nice job on L16: Ent, Rabscuttle.
02-26-2006 at 04:24 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Optimise this!: KDD2: L8: 2S2E (+1)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
urgh.

Saved two, lost one for a net gain of one move. There's maybe one more that could be saved, perhaps :/


Yup, just a little optimisation as you move back towards the orb, allowing Beethro to be facing NW for an additional saving of one move.

Got this one by looking at both yours and Michthros demo, so the credit should really go to the both of you.
02-26-2006 at 04:32 PM
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