The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
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Registered: 06-09-2005
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For my attempts at a hold, I have been told that it can not go any further because of copyright issues. What I want to know is what is copyrighted in this new system. Because of the new scripting there are many things that you can do, such as, create new characters, custom floor and wall images, and other image tinkering. What is allowed to do with out infringing on copyright?

And if anyone knows for certain, the problem that pertains to me is player role. I don't think its a problem, but if someone can issue a broad statement covering most of the scripting issues. (I would be best if it was not just anyone that answered this, that would not help much)

I know that this is not the normal method of getting copyright permission, but if its a problem for me then it is likely that it is a problem for others as well.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 933
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The spitemaster wrote:
For my attempts at a hold, I have been told that it can not go any further because of copyright issues. What I want to know is what is copyrighted in this new system. Because of the new scripting there are many things that you can do, such as, create new characters, custom floor and wall images, and other image tinkering. What is allowed to do with out infringing on copyright?

And if anyone knows for certain, the problem that pertains to me is player role. I don't think its a problem, but if someone can issue a broad statement covering most of the scripting issues. (I would be best if it was not just anyone that answered this, that would not help much)

I know that this is not the normal method of getting copyright permission, but if its a problem for me then it is likely that it is a problem for others as well.

Can you give us a more precise explanation of the problem?

The things that may be copyrighted include (but are not limited to) any custom art, music, sounds. If you made them yourself, you're fine. If someone else made them *and* they release them into the public domain, you're fine. If they give you explicit permission for the items to be used in this and any other DROD constructs, you should be fine, I think. At least that's my take on it.

____________________________
My Holds

The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 354
Registered: 06-09-2005
IP: Logged

Like all the player role stuff. Just saying player Role Wraithwing should not be infringement, except I have been told to clear it. And I thought that if I got hung up on that everyone else would need to be cleared too.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
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I imagine it is not using the scripting, but whatever image is used to represent the wraithwing's "face" in the upper left hand corner of the play screen. Is that a Caravel-copyrighted image? If you used one of the face images that comes with TCB, those should be okay, since the non-generic ones should not be available for general use, if I remember correctly. But using a wraithwing picture from the old website would be bad. I should just check your hold myself, but I'm tired and will try to remember to do it tomorrow unless, hopefully, someone explains it more.

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Briareos
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Oneiromancer wrote:
I imagine it is not using the scripting, but whatever image is used to represent the wraithwing's "face" in the upper left hand corner of the play screen. Is that a Caravel-copyrighted image?

Nah, it's the TCB wraithwing tiles if I'm not mistaken.

@The spitemaster: as usual, everything is copyrighted to the creator as soon as it is created. In case of stuff that comes with DROD, it's Caravel's copyright. If you made it yourself, it would be your copyright. If you want to ask someone else's work, you need to ask for permission unless it comes with a license that already grants you permission.

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

TFMurphy
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Briareos wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:
I imagine it is not using the scripting, but whatever image is used to represent the wraithwing's "face" in the upper left hand corner of the play screen. Is that a Caravel-copyrighted image?

Nah, it's the TCB wraithwing tiles if I'm not mistaken.

No, that doesn't make any sense either. Use of Player Role itself does not constitute any infringement.

The only infringement related to this that can occur is with new Characters which can be Player Role'd into (or just placed), and even then, *ONLY* with the Custom Tiles and Custom Avatar.

Given that it's impossible at the moment to mix included Tiles with different Avatars - they must match unless you use a Custom version - a standard Wraithwing character is just going to have Beethro's avatar with Wraithwing tiles without any Custom use. This is not an infringement.

If, however, you took a screenshot of some graphic in TCB and then imported that as a Custom Avatar (or Custom Tiles), in order to change that avatar of Beethro into something more Wraithwing-like, then that *would* be an infringement and you'd have to get permission from the creator if you wanted to use it.

So in summary, Player Role in itself is not a problem, and while it's annoying that you can't mix and match TCB tiles and avatars without resorting to the Custom buttons (and thus going into copyright territory), there's nothing else you can do about that for now.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 08-24-2007 08:28 AM]

Briareos
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TFMurphy wrote:

Briareos wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:
I imagine it is not using the scripting, but whatever image is used to represent the wraithwing's "face" in the upper left hand corner of the play screen. Is that a Caravel-copyrighted image?

Nah, it's the TCB wraithwing tiles if I'm not mistaken.

No, that doesn't make any sense either. Use of Player Role itself does not constitute any infringement.

Errr... there is an image containing 8 22x22 wraithwing tiles (all 8 directions) *embedded* in the hold file. I take it he uses this wraithwing image as tiles for a custom NPC, but that's still something that needs permission from Caravel.

If, however, you took a screenshot of some graphic in TCB and then imported that as a Custom Avatar (or Custom Tiles), in order to change that avatar of Beethro into something more Wraithwing-like, then that *would* be an infringement and you'd have to get permission from the creator if you wanted to use it.

That's why I said "it's the TCB wraithwing tiles" - he's using them in his hold, and he probably took them from a screenshot or something...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
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Sorry, I misunderstood your post. But then again, there's been very little clarity about exactly what was being referred to until the last few posts. Copyrighted graphics imported into the hold would definitely constitue infringement, but I found it odd that the initial query was about Player Role. I'm also surprised the trouble was went to to import the Wraithwing tileset and it didn't come up earlier - like Oneiromancer, I was definitely expecting more an avatar issue.

In any case, I think the guidelines have now been made pretty clear, so the spitemaster can do whatever he needs to to rectify this.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 08-24-2007 11:56 AM]

Oneiromancer
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I had a suspicion that he had imported the in-game sprites as the face image, and yeah, that really shouldn't be done. If you don't want to just leave it blank, then draw up a wraithwing yourself in Paint...or better yet, see if one of our artists wants to do it for you. Make a new contest in the Contests forum, or just ask politely in Architecture. Personally I wouldn't really care, as a player, if the face was left blank, and it would be really weird to see a mosaic of wraithwings up in the corner.

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Someone Else
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I thought that using images copyrighted by Caravel inside of DROD was alright, as long as they are not modified in any way. It's only taking them outside of DROD or modifying them that is a problem.

Briareos
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Someone Else wrote:
I thought that using images copyrighted by Caravel inside of DROD was alright, as long as they are not modified in any way. It's only taking them outside of DROD or modifying them that is a problem.

Well, putting them up inside a hold file of yours for the whole internet to download does count as "outside of DROD" in my book...

np: Phantom Ghost - Born With A Nervous Breakdown (To Damascus)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

AlefBet
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Someone Else wrote:
I thought that using images copyrighted by Caravel inside of DROD was alright, as long as they are not modified in any way. It's only taking them outside of DROD or modifying them that is a problem.

It is in distributing copyright material that you invoke copyright and Caravel becomes interested. Since copying DROD graphics into your hold requires you to distribute them whenever you distribute your hold, Caravel doesn't grant permission for that. When you use player roles, you don't distribute game sprites or other Caravel material; you instead rely on the copy installed on the Delver's machine. This is apparent when they have a game mod installed -- it will use the Delver's modified tiles rather than the Architect's originals.

So, holds that rely on Caravel graphics in the target installation to work -- fine. Holds that copy those graphics and take them with them -- copyright infringement.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

coppro
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I recall Erik said something specifically about unmodified, DROD-included sprites (primarily to allow for a normal Beethro sprite with a custom swordless sprite, or something similar).

AlefBet
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coppro wrote:
I recall Erik said something specifically about unmodified, DROD-included sprites (primarily to allow for a normal Beethro sprite with a custom swordless sprite, or something similar).

It would be good if you could find a reference to this. It's a little bit out of character for him, I think, but not outside plausibility.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

Tim
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First, I want to apologise for not answering this thread earlier due to my real life duties.

Perhaps I should clear up some of the confusion, since I was the one who said that there was a problem in the first place.

The whole situation started like this:

1) Spitemaster submitted his hold.
2) I looked at the hold, and found a character with copied wraithwing graphics.
3) I asked him whether he got permission for his wraithwing image.
4) He said he made it himself, and therfore doesn't want to change.
5) He posted his question on the top of this page.
6) I didn't had time answering things until now.

It means that we did not even discussed what the real problem was. That's why he thought it was some Player Role issue.

What happened in the meantime:

1) Spitemaster put up a new version with 2 additional characters. These images are not from Caravel.
2) The wraithwing image character is still there, with the Caravel image.

That means that I still can't approve the hold unless permission is given to that picture.

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

eytanz
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To clarify further, current HA guidelines are as follows:

1. Copyrighted media is an issue in the cases where you import graphics or sound. That includes image tiles, custom NPC graphics, and the like. If you go through an interface that asks you to supply a filename, then this is relevant. If you don't have to supply a filename, you don't have to worry (so player roles are not a problem if the role isn't based on custom NPC graphics).

2. It's ok to use any graphics from DROD:AE.

3. It's not ok to use any graphics from any other version of DROD, modified or not, without specifically getting permission from Erik to use in the current hold. It doesn't matter how you got hold of the graphics. As far as I know, there are no graphics that Erik gave blanket permission to use other than the DROD:AE ones.

4. It is ok to use all DROD sound effects from any version of DROD, except Webfoot DROD.

5. DROD music falls under similar rules to graphics - you need permission from the copyright owner, except for DROD:AE. Note that Erik doesn't own the copyright for all DROD music, so he might not be the person you need to ask if you want to use it.

6. It's not ok to use media (graphics or sound) from any non-DROD source, unless you have permission (either individual or via their licensing conditions) to use the media. Obviously, if you drew the graphics, you have permission.

Also, importantly: It doesn't matter if the media is actually used in the hold, as long as it is included in the hold file - if you include a custom graphic in the hold, you need permission for it, even if it is never actually used in any rooms. To remove a graphic that's not used, press F9 and delete it.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

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[Last edited by eytanz at 08-25-2007 02:11 AM]

ErikH2000
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Everything Eytan said is true. I don't want to say more because he already summed it up quite well, and people must be getting fatigued of reading explanations at this point.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

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Just a warning for you all, if you're googling and looking for sound effects and music.

I know that Creative Commons licensing's a good source of sound/music but please note the following subtlety that I ran across when trying to harvest sound effects/music for my own hold.

If you want to use any sound effects/music that is released under the license, you must follow certain conditions. If the sound/music is ambient then the hold it is used in does not necessarily have to be under Creative Commons, it depends on the individual license.

However, if the sound/music is triggered by any kind of event, then the entire derivative work (i.e. the hold) must be released under the Creative Commons license. I believe this applies even under the most liberal creative commons license.

____________________________
My Holds

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[Last edited by calamarain at 08-25-2007 03:16 AM]

Kwakstur
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I'm interested in the explaination of that odd legal quirk.

____________________________
Also known as ExpHP everywhere else.

Znirk
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calamarain wrote:
if the sound/music is triggered by any kind of event, then the entire derivative work (i.e. the hold) must be released under the Creative Commons license. I believe this applies even under the most liberal creative commons license.

I think I'm to blame for your interpretation of these licenses, and I'd like to clarify what I think is happening here. (Other readers, if you can be bothered, you can read up on the various CC licenses at creativecommons.org)

The relevant difference is not specific to CC. Say you want to "do something" with other people's copyrighted works. While all of the following require permissions (i.e. licenses), it matters whether you're 1) just distributing unmodified copies 2) making a collection / anthology / sampler / whatever of unmodified copies or 3) creating a modified work based on another person's copyrighted work but with your own contributions.

These (and others) count as separate rights reserved to the copyright holder, and you need separate permissions for each. There are different CC licenses, each of which may give you some but not others of these permissions.

Now the sticky thing Calamarin refers to is that the CC licenses specifically point out that using music and sound effects "synced" with moving pictures is always considered to be an "Adaptation" rather than just a "Collection" in their terminology, and that you thus need the copyright holder's permission to make derivative works.

This gives us the following distribution: If anything is licensed under one of the CC "no derivatives" licenses, then you can't use it at all in the cases Calamarin describes. If anything is licensed under a "share alike" license, then you can use it, but have to use the same license for the entire hold. If one of the remaining two CC licenses is used ("attribution" and "attribution-noncommercial"), then you can use the sound and still choose your own license for the complete hold.

Usual restrictions apply. I'm not a lawyer and not involved in Creative Commons. If you want to be really sure, ask them, not me.

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[Last edited by Znirk at 09-20-2007 04:25 PM]

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

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Ah, that clarifies things a bit. Thanks

Another interesting point though, regarding public domain stuff. In the US, I don't believe that any sound recording comes under public domain unless it has specifically been released into there - so just watch that one. The exception is if it's old enough and there are very few sound recordings old enough to be in the public domain.

____________________________
My Holds