Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1224
Registered: 01-08-2006
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I good at scripting, and story, and am moderately okay at building rooms. Just giving you my pluses so you know what I can do.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
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I would love to help. I remember playing Webfoot when I was 7. I'm pretty good at scripting, aesthetics, & story, and I can even make passable puzzles. And my beta-testing commentary is very thorough.

On linearity: This should be mostly avoided. If I need help with fegundos, I don't want to have to play through roach queens or Mud first.

On cutscenes: One thing I have seen reviewers praise in DROD was the unobtrusive aspects of "cutscenes" in JtRH. And I predict that it will be a new hazard for architects to avoid getting too cutscene-happy when simpler scripted events would suffice. In Smitemastery 101, backswiping was demonstrated with a Guard character and two Roach characters... and it works perfectly. Cutscenes should ideally be optional, and not an architect's first choice.

On comprehensiveness: I think it should be comprehensive, but only if the player wants it. We can say "Serpents' movement is based on the clock" then "multiples of five affect direction" then tell them exactly how it does, then finally give them the arcane movement preferences on a remote scroll.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

hyphz
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 34
Registered: 01-02-2006
IP: Logged

File: Movement.hold (15.1 KB)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Creative Commons

This is actually what I wanted to do in my tutorial hold, and in fact I made a start on it, which I've placed here.

Warning: this hold file is for DROD 2.0 (ie, JtRH; it will run on TCB though, although it looks ugly for TCB and some of the scrolls overflow - it seems the scrolls were made a tiny bit smaller on TCB??) and comes to a sudden halt (load it into the editor and you can see the beginnings of some other levels). Also, the interesting bits (ie, different to what's in every other tutorial) only start on the second level, and the secret room on the first level has a staircase to nowhere. I have been working on a rewrite for TCB (also where the tutorial is spoken by Beethro instead of being on scrolls), but it isn't up to the interesting bit yet.

I have to agree with the above post, the linearity is a big issue. It's the main hold-up to using TCB/JtRH/KDD themselves as the ne plus ultra tutorial holds. When I was starting off, it was very frustrating for me to see (for example) mud in a downloaded hold, and want to learn the basics of dealing with it - but I couldn't learn about it JtRH/KDD, because I was still on the roach/eye levels and couldn't choose when mud would appear.

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[Last edited by hyphz at 04-05-2007 04:06 AM]

Hikari
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 438
Registered: 01-28-2006
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Um... I'm not totally sure how much/if I could help, but... I'd like to get involved somehow in this project. What's still needed?

____________________________
Caravel Official Holds Progress:

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[Last edited by Hikari at 04-09-2007 04:01 AM]

slimm tom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1236
Registered: 10-14-2006
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Are there any more people needed? If there are, i'd like to join.
I'm very good at scripting and making puzzles. (By the way, i have CaravelNet, so you can invite me to Beta testing)

bodkin
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 26
Registered: 03-19-2007
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How's it going? I'm not technical but I'd be pleased to play rooms through if that would help.

I've just read jbluesteins point about making a list of easy holds and already-built practice rooms on specific points (for instance the one on killing the slayer using a bomb without fuse). I think there's a real need for it – there are several old threads where someone asks "what are good holds for beginners" and they get a few suggestions back but then the thread fades out. Then the question is asked again.

The list should be stickied somewhere so it grows rather than disappearing. But it's a lot of work, there are so many holds now.

And having a list doesn't mean that there's no need for a thorough tutorial hold. (As long as it's quirky and fun.) The tutorial can be at the top of the list. With pointers about where to go next.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
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bodkin wrote:
How's it going?

It... uh... died. We started this project at precisely the wrong time, i.e. when TCB came out and distracted everyone.

Wait, not dead, just stalled... yay summer! No, it's dead.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 07-30-2007 03:58 AM]

bodkin
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 26
Registered: 03-19-2007
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How about taking individual rooms from holds that already exist if they are particularly good at explaining or extending something. (If the architects were willing of course.)

It could be an honour to be included (like a mini SMS), the original hold could be referenced by scroll, and then not everything has to be done from scratch.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

bodkin wrote:
How about taking individual rooms from holds that already exist if they are particularly good at explaining or extending something. (If the architects were willing of course.)

It's a good idea, and I think it was discussed at some point, but I've played the majority of user-made holds and I can tell you that there's still plenty to be done from scratch.

I myself would make some tutorials, but I'm busy in real life just now and I have an idea for a regular hold that's burning a hole in my brain.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Insane
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 154
Registered: 08-06-2005
IP: Logged

I'm currently working on my version of an "All-inclusive" tutorial hold.
I'm making sure to include every single bit, including the commonly overlooked aspect of: "What are these papers I'm standing on actually?"

-Insane

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
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You know, I started work on a tutorial, but stopped a few days ago when I heard of Zonhin's tutorial. I didn't try it yet, but I hear it's quite good so...

Insane
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 154
Registered: 08-06-2005
IP: Logged

File: Ultimate Training Hold v1.1.hold (8.5 KB)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's my current WIP.
Comment on it, please!

-Insane

Update #1: 17.5.07@17:25 - Changed the rotation of two entrances.

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[Last edited by Insane at 05-17-2007 04:26 PM]

bodkin
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 26
Registered: 03-19-2007
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I think the biggest problem with all tutorials is that they are written by exceedingly good players, who understand what you need to be able to do to play Drod, and they design their holds on the techniques you need. So – move around with the number pad, open doors, kill monsters etc..

But the tutorials assume that the person already wants to play the game. But why should they? (With me it was because someone recommended it – as a game that you could just play for a few minutes at a time, room by room. Like a more interesting patience game. Ha ha ha ha ha.) The architect knows that Drod is a good thing, so gives the clearest possible path to becoming competent. All the tutorials posted do this extremely well, and look very nice with it. TCB room styles are lovely, and they are used well. But most of the tutorial holds aren't that fun. Sorry to say this, please forgive me for saying it, but so far they are more like learning to type, or something like that. You want to be able to type so you go through whatever process you need to do to learn. (Not all, I liked the trapdoor puzzles in one of them. They went to a nice level of easy but needing a bit of thought.)

Instead – what is the most fun a complete beginner can have in Drod? Is it killing roaches? In which case start with that, show the stabbing and hacking and stepping possibilities. But (I think) take it quite a long way before you move on to the next subject. So the beginner has already learnt something, and had a taste of the game. (IMO if you introduce, say, oremite you should have an immediate use for it. Otherwise it's an abstract kind of thing, a catalogue.) If it's using the keypad, is there some way of making it fun? (Me, I loved making patterns on big sheets of trapdoors.)

An earlier post suggested that you should be able to go off in different directions, presumably from a central hub, to learn about the particular subject you wanted. So you wouldn't have to master movement before the game allowed you to look at, say, goblins. Or platforms, wraiths, whatever.

Please don't be offended, the holds are very good at what they are doing, but could you give one to a beginner and say "this is why I'm hooked on the game"?

Elfstone
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1285
Registered: 03-01-2006
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Some interesting points here, but if I may just say that the Training Hold project is certainly not dead - it has just moved away from the General board.

bodkin said
I think the biggest problem with all tutorials is that they are written by exceedingly good players, who understand what you need to be able to do to play Drod, and they design their holds on the techniques you need.

There is something in what you say bodkin, but I am certainly not an "exceedingly good player" (or architect) and I am a fairly recent DROD convert who is still learning, so I hope to compile a Hold which will draw newbies into the game at the same time as giving them the skills they will need to approach more demanding holds.


____________________________
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FAPCA - Technical Design Excellence in Layout and Aesthetics

zonhin
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 99
Registered: 10-18-2005
IP: Logged

Dex Stewart wrote:
You know, I started work on a tutorial, but stopped a few days ago when I heard of Zonhin's tutorial. I didn't try it yet, but I hear it's quite good so...

____________________________
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And cut myself a slice of sunshine pie
I danced with the peanut butterflies
Till time went and told me to say hello but wave goodbye

Yellow_Mage
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 267
Registered: 05-19-2004
IP: Logged

bodkin wrote:
...But most of the tutorial holds aren't that fun.

This is so much the point.

As I'm finishing up my old hold (bleh) I'm thinking of making another reasonbly good idea for a project (there are several, and I don't feel like doing most of them because they are complicated).

A straight up beginner's hold. Not obviously made so, so it won't be called "A Biginner's Hold" or "Tutorual Hold of Doom Doom Doom".

It's just simply a hold that has interesting rooms that very slowly introduces you to elements, from DROD1 to DROD3. First shows you the elements simply. Doesn't all the time explicitly tell you to do something, as it would engage the player to experiment if they forced to do so, like with doors a switches (which is how players of DROD like to play the game). How TCB indroduced pressure plates was the perfect example of a prompt, probably not that much room for experimentation or playing around in but was decently contructed room so it wasn't too bland. Elements under certain conditions, how elements interact with each other (not done much), then you have a few more complex puzzle rooms which allow the player to solve soley on their own with no aid or prompts. Even examples of ugly stuff needs to be shown regardless of how it doesn't make great rooms, like tar covering walls or other objects of interest and such like that I can't really think of at the moment.

I'm happier that way. Having a nice to follow story, keeping it a low difficulty hold because there would be more hand holding as opposed to much of it due to the difficulty of puzzles dramatically toned down. I would call it Stalwart's Adventure because I'm into irony. Cos about backslashing... >_>


____________________________
"Sit and daydream, and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Neathro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 41
Registered: 04-24-2007
IP: Logged

zonhin wrote:

Dex Stewart wrote:
You know, I started work on a tutorial, but stopped a few days ago when I heard of Zonhin's tutorial. I didn't try it yet, but I hear it's quite good so...

I compiled zonhins tutorials...
Also, I would really like to join if possible, but I'm not a great beta tester in general because I almost voted tresure hunt 10 brains but for a tutorial I can beta and I'm moderatly good at scripting (Cut scenes, player roles and answer options in particular.)

____________________________
This is not a signature, it is a
collection of randomly selected
words. Teaspoon.

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[Last edited by Neathro at 05-22-2007 11:38 AM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

So, wait, the tutorial hold is sort of like a regular hold except with a far less steep learning curve?

In the words of mis-informed marketers everywhere, I'd hit that.

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