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ErikH2000
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icon A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
Anybody that wants to be in the sooncoming November contest has to solve this puzzle and e-mail me the answer to contests@caravelgames.com. This isn't the contest itself. Consider it a qualifying exam. You can also send me the answer for fun and decide not to enter the contest proper now or later.

If you don't enjoy these kinds of puzzles then you probably won't like the contest. Also, I need to test the feasability of a few ideas here before I screw up on a large scale. If you have any questions about the puzzle, please ask them here publicly.

-Erik

---
Bombus Gadhan had a small dinner party for himself and three hallholders, Ungred, Plobe, and Findley. There were 4 places at north, south, west, and east ends of the table. Bombus, the consummate host, arranged to serve everyone their favorite food and beverage, despite the inconvenience that everyone dining had unique preferences. Bombus and his guests wore formal dinner hats in different colors--yellow, green, white, and blue. A steak was served at the east place along with a glass of milk. At the opposite end of the table, a cup of leafjuice was served. Bombus, whose favorite thing to eat is a fine leg of horster, sat across from the diner wearing a yellow hat. Wine was served at one place, and at the opposite end, a glass of water was served along with salad. A diner who sat next to Findley ate a fegundo egg. The person who ate that egg sat next to someone wearing a green hat, and continuing in that direction, the next person at the table wore a white hat. Ungred sat next to someone eating a horster leg. The glass of milk was found at the place to his other side. Ungred himself was satisfied to drink merely water. Someone sitting south of Findley will enjoy a salad.

Who sat where? What hats did they wear? What did they eat and drink?



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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 11-04-2005 05:20 PM]
11-03-2005 at 09:00 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
I made a correction to disambiguate who exactly likes the fine leg of Horster.

-Erik

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11-03-2005 at 09:42 PM
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Andy101
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Someone sitting south of Findley will enjoy a salad.



Does this mean that someone sitting at the south end eats the salad or that someone sitting at south, east or west eats the salad?

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11-03-2005 at 10:15 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
quote:
Andy101 wrote:
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Someone sitting south of Findley will enjoy a salad.



Does this mean that someone sitting at the south end eats the salad or that someone sitting at south, east or west eats the salad?


Figuring that out is part of the puzzle (since it depends on Findley's position).

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11-03-2005 at 10:17 PM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
quote:
Andy101 wrote:
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Someone sitting south of Findley will enjoy a salad.



Does this mean that someone sitting at the south end eats the salad or that someone sitting at south, east or west eats the salad?

Well, it depends on where Findley is sitting. And this also limits where Findley can sit. All part of the logic puzzle, I imagine.

Edit: BAH!

Game on,

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 11-03-2005 10:18 PM]
11-03-2005 at 10:18 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
quote:
Andy101 wrote:
Does this mean that someone sitting at the south end eats the salad or that someone sitting at south, east or west eats the salad?

Neither, exactly.

The salad is set at a place which is south of Findley's place. Whether the first or second thing you said is true depends on where Findley is sitting.

-Erik

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11-03-2005 at 10:19 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
Oh no...

WHEN WILL I BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE ONE CONTEST, FOR GOD'S SAKE!?!?

Sorry, i was really frustrated.

Can we make alternate contests which isn't a monthly (like golden pie, roaches in our midst and smite to death) but user-made contests?

I'd have an idea... but i must first stay focused on my one project, which is what agaricus5 told me in my beta-testing board of Beethro's Roach.

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 11-03-2005 10:26 PM]
11-03-2005 at 10:25 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
Oh no...

WHEN WILL I BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE ONE CONTEST, FOR GOD'S SAKE!?!?

Sorry, i was really frustrated.

Um... Why not just have a go?

Try deciphering the puzzle, and looking at the information given to work out the solution. Maybe you might want to draw it out, and see what you get.

In any case, you don't need to shout. Contests are for fun; they're not on-demand things that have to be catered for any one person in particular. I haven't participated in a few, for example, since I didn't have the skills required.

quote:
I'd have an idea... but i must first stay focused on my one project, which is what agaricus5 told me in my beta-testing board of Beethro's Roach.

Yup. It's better to finish one thing than start ten and not finish any.

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11-03-2005 at 10:38 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
quote:
b0rsuk wrote:
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Bombus, whose favorite thing to eat is a fine leg of horster, sat across from the diner wearing a yellow hat.



Ugh. Err. Who was wearing a yellow hat ? Bombus, or the diner ?


The diner. The sentence doesn't make sense otherwise (since there are four diners, and if it's bombus wearing the yellow hat then the sentence implies that there's only one).

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11-03-2005 at 10:39 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
quote:
b0rsuk wrote:
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Bombus, whose favorite thing to eat is a fine leg of horster, sat across from the diner wearing a yellow hat.



Ugh. Err. Who was wearing a yellow hat ? Bombus, or the diner ?

Since there's no comma after diner (or the commas would have acted like brackets), I would say it's the diner who is wearing the yellow hat, not Bombus (although I agree it is a bit ambiguous). I believe, however, that interpreting it as "Bombus is wearing a yellow hat" leads to a contradiction in the solution.

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11-03-2005 at 10:41 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
I adore logic puzzles. This one reminds me of the game Dinner with Moriarty, which I still have and play.
Making a diagram helps.

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11-04-2005 at 12:28 AM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
Is there a deadline for submitting answers? I'll get mine in tomorrow morning when I get back from work. But, I thought I'd mention that there wasn't anything mentioned about how long we actually had.

11-04-2005 at 03:27 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
Hmm. I'll announce a deadline and other contest rules this weekend. You got time, Kev.

-Erik

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11-04-2005 at 03:40 AM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
Erik: Is it okay if I upload the diagram I personally used to finish this? It doesn't have any answers, it's just a setup like you see in those logic puzzle books.
11-04-2005 at 07:56 AM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
quote:
agaricus5 wrote:
quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
Oh no...

WHEN WILL I BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE ONE CONTEST, FOR GOD'S SAKE!?!?

Sorry, i was really frustrated.

Um... Why not just have a go?

Try deciphering the puzzle, and looking at the information given to work out the solution. Maybe you might want to draw it out, and see what you get.

In any case, you don't need to shout. Contests are for fun; they're not on-demand things that have to be catered for any one person in particular. I haven't participated in a few, for example, since I didn't have the skills required.

quote:
I'd have an idea... but i must first stay focused on my one project, which is what agaricus5 told me in my beta-testing board of Beethro's Roach.

Yup. It's better to finish one thing than start ten and not finish any.


I can't! These are IMPOSSIBLE to me, i might be autist and still young, but i can't solve that one on any purpose.

The december contest must be related to hold making (NORMAL LEVELS!!) or i leave!!! Not lying there!

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11-04-2005 at 10:17 AM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
The december contest must be related to hold making (NORMAL LEVELS!!) or i leave!!! Not lying there!


Calm down Jeff ! Why dont you try the puzzle ? It cant be that hard ! As for december : I dont know what kind of contest we will have, but why dont mail Erik the rules of the contest you want to do ? If you have a good contest idea it might be taken.


[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 11-04-2005 11:03 AM]
11-04-2005 at 10:38 AM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (-1)  
Maybe but for now i must be outta these, heh?

The only puzzles i'd solve is 46273x13, 73908+38297, 1480/5, 47318-28937, mathematical situations like "Thomas had 34 balls of tennis. He played 5 games which each took 4 balls. How many balls of tennis are left?" and all the mathematical, musical and french stuff. Maybe you should make the next contest as an questions of school load. (remember to ask how much you know or else i won't be able to participate and...

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11-04-2005 at 10:53 AM
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MeckMeck GRE
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
Question (dosent contain any spoilers, I only repeat whats given) :

Ungred sat next to someone eating a horster leg.
The glass of milk was found at the place to his other side.

On who is "his" refrering ? On someone or on Ungred ?

Because :

Water is at the opposite side of wine.
How can Water then be also the oposite side of milk ?

So I suppose its refering to someone but Im not really sure.
Please clarify this.

[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 11-04-2005 11:08 AM]
11-04-2005 at 11:06 AM
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agaricus5
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quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
I can't! These are IMPOSSIBLE to me, i might be autist and still young, but i can't solve that one on any purpose.

Not to be rude intentionally (or upset anyone else who might themselves have the condition), but that's a very intriguing insight indeed.

Are you really autistic? This would seem to explain why sometimes you do things that appear (at least to me) unusual. If you are, maybe we (as a forum community) might need to be a bit more tolerant towards you, since (in that light) you might not be entirely at fault for what you post.

Of course, saying that, I don't know whether or not it is possible for you to try not to be so impulsive when you post. I understand that you can get frustrated, but would it be possible for you to try not to shout at the very least, and perhaps not use such strong language? For example:
quote:
The december contest must be related to hold making (NORMAL LEVELS!!) or i leave!!! Not lying there!

quote:
Maybe you should make the next contest as an questions of school load. (remember to ask how much you know or else i won't be able to participate and...

My sig where i've told about the tombstones and leaving Jeff_ray will be true!

I understand you want to participate in a contest (and you could have done so in the Smite to the Death Contest if you'd wanted to - you could have just submitted some random numbers and letters, and seen what happened), but do you need to threaten leaving or death to yourself if you can't? In any case, would you leave or die if you couldn't? If you'd answer no to both, then it's not really worth saying what you said, since you don't mean it. Just asking "would it be possible to have the December contest related to hold-building?" would be more likely to have an effect (and be more polite).

If, however, you'd actually do what you mentioned (which is unlikely, but possible), then ask yourself if it would actually do anything good for you at all. Would it make your life better not to be on the Forum simply because you couldn't participate in a contest? Would playing DROD be as fun if you couldn't talk to the rest of us as well?

Also, contests are for fun, and there is one every month. Why not just wait for a few, and see if any come up that you can enter - is missing one (or even a few) that important to you?

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11-04-2005 at 12:25 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
quote:
MeckMeck GRE wrote:
Ungred sat next to someone eating a horster leg.
The glass of milk was found at the place to his other side.

On who is "his" refrering ? On someone or on Ungred ?

It is Ungred that the word is referring to. I can't explain it to you qualitatively, though (I'm no expert in linguistics), so maybe someone else can help.

quote:
Because:

Water is at the opposite side of wine.
How can Water then be also the oposite side of milk ?

So I suppose its refering to someone but Im not really sure.
Please clarify this.

If you've found a contradiction, something's wrong with an assumption you're making - the puzzle can be solved, and there is nothing wrong with any of the clues (if you interpret them correctly). Check your logic and see if it fits with the clues.

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11-04-2005 at 12:31 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (+1)  
That pronoun is a tricky question. I think "someone = his" would be unclear, and languages tend to avoid ambiguity, so sentences have one clear meaning and don't need to be interpreted.

The closest thing to an explanation I can offer is the lack of proximity between the noun and its pronoun, making "someone = his" impossible. Pronouns tend to imply a logical link, so to avoid confusions, but here there would be no direct link. Someone is not next to the pronoun, unlike a sentence like "Someone has forgotten his (or their) jacket", where the pronoun immediately follows its noun. Ssomeone is also not the subject of the first sentence (Ungred is the subject), whereas his would be: "Ungrid found a glass of milk at the place to his other side" (or developping the passive form: "The glass of milk was found by Ungrid at the place to his other side").

On another note, if his was someone, there would have been no need to start another sentence: instead, a relative clause like "who found a glass of milk to his other side" could have been written. On the other hand, the current sentence requires a break somewhere, creating two propositions that could be independent (possibly introduced by and, "and to his other side he found the glass of milk").

So, I think the pronoun is too far away from someone for them to be connected, and a change in the perspective would have been probably better emphasised, with a break in the sentence(s) or a phrase like "as for himself", "this person", or some such. Still, while I had no doubt about who was him, it *is* a lot harder to explain why it is so. Well, at least I tried. :rolleyes



[Last edited by Alneyan at 11-04-2005 01:02 PM]
11-04-2005 at 12:56 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
I'm going to be obnoxious here and ask if anyone ate or drank nothing, or if anyone ate or drank more than one thing.
11-04-2005 at 02:40 PM
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Alneyan
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I don't think I'm spoiling anything by telling you that no, everybody drank and ate something. Normally, these puzzles imply that all items are used once, and once only, so if you cannot get it to work, the problem lies in your reasoning.

I really like this sort of puzzle, though I wonder how it is intended to work as a contest. Hmm...

[Last edited by Alneyan at 11-04-2005 02:45 PM]
11-04-2005 at 02:44 PM
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icon Re: A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor. (0)  
same here... I really enjoyed working this puzzle out. the last sentance did throw me for a bit though. :D
11-04-2005 at 03:25 PM
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quote:
Alneyan wrote:
languages tend to avoid ambiguity


That is about as far from the truth as you can get. Seriously, one of the first things one learns as a linguist is that ambiguity is very, very common.

In this case, the sentence is truly ambiguous - to see why that this is the case, just change Ungred's name to a female name - and get:

Susan sat next to someone eating a horster leg.
The glass of milk was found at the place to his other side.

Note that here, "his" can't refer to Susan because she's female, so it clearly refers to "someone".

That said, there is a tendency for pronouns to prefer referring to unembedded elements; since "someone" is more deeply embedded than "Ungred", Ungred is the preferred referrence, and probably the one Erik meant.

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11-04-2005 at 03:39 PM
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quote:
agaricus5 wrote:
do you need to threaten leaving or death to yourself if you can't?


I just wanted to follow this up - people do get quite distressed when others threaten suicide, and not in the good, they-do-what-you-want way. Threatening to leave rarely works how you want either, as eventually people will give up and say "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

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11-04-2005 at 03:44 PM
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Alneyan
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Bleh, I think I see your point: my wording (after my last edit) is just not exactly adequate. It should have been "tend to favour clarity", and not ambiguity, in that all the languages I know of allow to convey your meaning without any major difficulty, despite relatively different ways of ensuring said clarity.
11-04-2005 at 03:47 PM
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Its not so much that most languages allows clarity (which they do) but that they also allow so much ambiguity. In other words, its not so much the language which is at fault, but the user.

I had a lot of fun solving this problem (as I do most problems of this sort). I think there's a real art to phrasing the clues so that they are unambiguous (or, perhaps that any ambiguity will resolve itself logically) without giving too much away. Its not easy to do, and I think Eric did an admirable job.

quote:
Susan sat next to someone eating a horster leg.
The glass of milk was found at the place to his other side.

Note that here, "his" can't refer to Susan because she's female, so it clearly refers to "someone".



I know this wasn't your specific point, but one of my pet peaves in logic problems is when the author relies on the male/female pronouns to solve the problem without telling you which names refer to males/females. For example, I hate assuming that Susan is a girls name. Not because I personally know any "Boys named Sue" as it were, but because there are so many names that ARE ambiguous (Ex: Chris, Pat etc).

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11-04-2005 at 04:06 PM
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I know I misunderstood a clue but my problem is the following :

Ungred himself was satisfied to drink merely water...
The glass of milk was found at the place to his other side.

So Milk and Water are in the opposite place. (North/South or East/West).

Wine was served at one place, and at the opposite end,
a glass of water was served along with salad.

So Wine and Water are in the opposite place. (North/South or East/West).

A steak was served at the east place along with a glass of milk.
At the opposite end of the table, a cup of leafjuice was served.

So Milk and LeafeJuice are in the opposite place. (North/South or East/West).

:huh ?

So either someone gets 2 things (but someone already said that this is wrong) or I misunderstood the meaning of "opposite" and "other side" (which should be the same)

[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 11-04-2005 05:18 PM]
11-04-2005 at 05:16 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
Banjooie wrote:
Erik: Is it okay if I upload the diagram I personally used to finish this? It doesn't have any answers, it's just a setup like you see in those logic puzzle books.

Sure, but I think you should explain what it is and don't inline the image. Some people might consider it an unwanted hint.

-Erik

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11-04-2005 at 05:22 PM
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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : A Small Puzzle and Contest Precursor.
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