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Malarame
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icon Dvorak keyboard (+1)  
For years I've heard about the Dvorak keyboard and I've never heard anything bad about it. Every single thing I've heard is that it's easier, faster, and that it'll change your life and bring about world peace. I'm a fairly decent typist on qwerty (about 50-60wpm or so), but lately I've been thinking about giving Dvorak a try. Does anyone here have any experience with it, and do you think it'd be worth it for me to try to switch?

My biggest obstacle would be the fact that I have a laptop, so I'll have to learn without looking at the keyboard at all. I could pry the keys off and rearrange them, but these keys break very easily and I don't want to take the risk. In order to learn, I'd probably download some free typing tutor program and spend an hour or so a day on it. I'll have to continue using qwerty for day-to-day stuff while I'm learning, but I don't think that'd be a big problem.

So do you think it'd be worth the time and effort?

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06-03-2005 at 08:09 AM
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icon Re: Dvorak keyboard (+2)  
I use a Dvorak keyboard, so I can tell you what experiences I've had with it.
I started using it about a year and a half ago.
In about a week I had all the key locations memorized, but could only type about 5 or 10 words a minute.
About a week later I was going about 20 words a minute, and it started to feel more natural to type in Dvorak than in qwerty.
This seems to be a reasonable speed to learn it, but from what I've read, it usually takes longer if you try to retain your qwerty skills while learning Dvorak.
After I was about a month in I stopped doing the training because I felt I was fast enough(somewhat faster than I was in qwerty).

The Dvorak keyboard definitely feels more pleasant on the hands, more natural feeling to type on and you will probably will increase your typing speed.
If you are looking for speed, for most people there is not much more than a 10 or 20 percent increase unless they were slow typers to begin with.
Any claims of world peace and other massive changes should be taken lightly.
For me, the main reason to use it is that it feels much better to type.
This is basically because your hand moves from the home row much less. (30 something percent of the keys pressed in qwerty are in the home row, while in Dvorak it is about 70 percent)
The layout feels much more natural, and when you type nonsense it doesn't look as ugly. (aoesudoentisnoteudaosentu vs asd;fhsdlkg;lskdfhas;dlkf)
Having a laptop isn't a big problem, as you can just carry around a printout of the layout with you or set a picture of it as your desktop background until you memorize the keys.
As far as using qwerty while learning Dvorak, I'd try to avoid it as it usually slows down the learning rate.

There are some negative sides that most Dvorak fans don't mention.
While learning Dvorak, your qwerty skills might drop a little.
Although you won't care much about this once you get your speed in Dvorak up to what it was in qwerty, until then it can be rather annoying.
If you use public computers, occasionally (depending on OS/restrictions) it may not allow you to use custom keyboards.
Since it is designed with English in mind, If you spend a large percentage of your time typing in another language, it may slow you down or at least not help with that(this also includes programming languages).
Many programs need to have the keys remapped, or can't be remapped at all. (try alternating between q and w on a Dvorak keyboard(same locations as x and , in qwerty))

Personally, I know it was worth it for me, but I think it varies from person to person. I would recommend it for anyone who doesn't touch type yet. I would also recommend it for anyone who spends an extremely large amound of time typing and wants to put less stress on their hands. For those who are somewhere in the middle, it depends on their personal situation, so I wouldn't actively advise them to do it, but wouldn't discourage them unless they are far too busy to learn it.
Overall, I'd recommend it only if you can go about two weeks with slower typing, and don't need that hour or two a day.

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06-03-2005 at 10:51 AM
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AlefBet
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I use Dvorak and can agree with pretty much everything Vylycyn said. The difference between my experience and his is that it took me about a month and a half to get up to speed on Dvorak, and my typing speed about doubled. (But I was never a very good Qwerty typist. 30wpm vs 60wpm.) But I'm a programmer and the typing speed isn't as critical to me. What I really like is how much more relaxing it is to type now than when I was typing on Qwerty. Typing is mostly just small finger twitches, rather than many large motions to hit all those vowels and consonants thrown on the top row. The reduced strain on my hands is worth a lot to me.

I recommend against fiddling with keycaps. You can do just fine with a printout of the keyboard layout resting next to the monitor (maybe with some drawn-in loops to show what goes with what fingers). And one of the reasons that typing on Dvorak helped me improve my speed is that I was finally forced to learn to type without looking at the keys (which, incidentally, greatly reduced my neck strain from looking back and forth between the keyboard and the monitor). This would probably be even easier for an experienced typist to get used to, since they're used to the home row, finger assignment methodology.

Changing the layout on pretty much any computer you use regularly is not an issue. Windows since 95 and NT4 (and probably earlier, but I know this much for sure) have come with optional dvorak layouts as part of the internationalization system, and Linux systems have had Dvorak options ever since I started using them around Red Hat 7 about five years ago. I have it on good authority that Macintosh has that option, too. (It's mentioned on the discussion page for the Wikipedia Dvorak keyboard page.) And I know that both Windows and Linux have hot keys you can enable for switching between keyboard layouts, if there's some flash game that just won't let you remap the keys. I expect Mac does too, but I don't have a Mac so I can't check.

It's true that typing on public computers for me is a touch more awkward than it used to be since I never bother keeping my Qwerty skills up, but I type on public computers about 2% of my total computing experience, and my return on investment is definitely net positive.

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06-03-2005 at 05:32 PM
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Malarame
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Changing the keyboard layout isn't a problem. It took me about two minutes to find the option to use the Dvorak style, and now I can swap between them by pressing a couple keys. I was fiddling around this morning a little with the Dvorak setting, and it does seem more comfortable to type with. I like how a lot of the key combinations have you "drumming" your fingers, like the t-h, for example. I think I'm going to start by simply learning where each of the keys is, and this summer I'll go cold-turkey and not use qwerty at all. I figure, by the end of a summer I should be pretty proficient.

Thanks for the replies, guys. You've convinced me (granted, it didn't take much, but still).

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06-03-2005 at 06:06 PM
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ErikH2000
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I had a nasty repetitive stress flare-up in my right hand this week and had to lay off the keyboard to let it heal up. Then today I spilled coffee on my keyboard. In a foul mood, I ripped all the keys off to mop up the coffee mess from the underneath part. Then as I was putting the keys back on, it hit me in one moment...

There is no better time than now to learn Dvorak!

So I printed out a Dvorak layout and used it to put the keys back on in new positions. I figured I already need to slow down with my typing to avoid more injury to my hand, plus the Dvorak layout may be better for avoiding strain with less hand movements. I was pretty excited! It was like the coffee spill was a stroke of good luck to give me the idea of rearranging the keys.

I switched the keyboard to Dvorak (Windows 2000, control panel -> keyboard). It sorta works, but certain letters produce weird combinations. If I hit shift-T, I get a bunch of chars like "utiov" even though I just hit one key. This and similar problems make Dvorak unusable on my system, so I had to switch it back to ye olde Qwerty. Then everything is fine, so it must not be an electrical issue (i.e. coffee in the keyboard shorting something). Any advice out there? I am really wanting to learn Dvorak now!

-Erik

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06-12-2005 at 07:56 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Dvorak keyboard (+1)  
O... k... a... y... I...

g... o... t... i... t...
t... o... w... o... r.... k... T.... h... i... s... i... s... v... e... r... y... d... i... f... f... i...


--aw, screw it. Gotta switch back to qwerty for a bit. Anyhow, I guess the key was to add an extra "Dvorak" locale in addition to the "Qwerty" locale. Before, I just replaced Qwerty with Dvorak, which logically should have worked or at least given me a useful error message, but nope.

I guess if I'm going to learn I should switch back to Dvorak again. >>Alt left shift<<

O... h... I.... a.... m.... s.... l... o... w..... !

-Erik

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06-12-2005 at 09:58 AM
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krammer
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You'd probably speed up if you didn't type those dots between each letter.

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06-12-2005 at 02:22 PM
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Malarame
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I think he was just doing that for emphasis.

Keep at it, Erik! You'll get faster. I switched completely about a week ago and I'm slowly getting faster. I'm guessing it'll be another week or so before I reach a moderate speed, and another couple of weeks before I'm fast again. I recommend checking out this website -- it'll help you to learn the layout and get faster. Using it, I was able to learn where all the keys are in about two days.

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06-12-2005 at 03:13 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Malarame wrote:
I think he was just doing that for emphasis.
Sacrasm detector broken today? :rolleyes

Game on,

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06-12-2005 at 06:32 PM
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Malarame
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Malarame wrote:
I think he was just doing that for emphasis.
Sacrasm detector broken today? :rolleyes

Game on,
I was tired this morning... I had a long night... So sue me :P

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06-12-2005 at 06:39 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Just messin' with ya. I'm usually good about catching sarcasm on message boards, but on IM I don't stop and think about it and take things too literally. Ah, well...

Game on,

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06-12-2005 at 06:44 PM
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As soon as I learned Dvorak, a friend showed me Asetion.

It has the advantage of being more similar to qwerty, but it has other advantages over Dvorak. The one I like most is having the Caps Lock key act as a second backspace. Also, you don't have to move to hit i. The website appears to be down right now, but asetion.com generally highlights the differences.

I still use Dvorak, but for anyone wanting to learn a new keyboard layout, Asetion might be a good thing.

Edit: The website is back up.

[Last edited by Abbyzzmal at 09-29-2005 08:33 PM]
09-29-2005 at 08:31 PM
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Malarame
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Well I've been using only dvorak for about four months now, and while I'm not yet back to the 70 wpm I could steadily handle on qwerty, I'm pretty damn fast. Also, I rarely make errors anymore. To be honest, I think the dvorak layout is much more comfortable and easier to type in than qwerty. The only thing I don't like is the location of some of the punctuation keys (especially the semi-colon button), but I can live with it.

The only downside is that I'm no longer able to type very well in qwerty. If I want to use any computer other than mine, I have to be staring at the keyboard in order to type, but if I see the keys I can usually get up to a decent speed.

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09-30-2005 at 01:09 AM
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trick
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It has the advantage of being more similar to qwerty, but it has other advantages over Dvorak. The one I like most is having the Caps Lock key act as a second backspace. Also, you don't have to move to hit i. The website appears to be down right now, but asetion.com generally highlights the differences.
Well, it seemed interesting until I looked at the so-called international version, which is a joke. I'm supposed to use AltGr every time I want to write an , or (in addition to Shift if I want capital letters), whose keys are also spread out randomly (they're all vowels, btw) ? Not to mention the fact that the layout uses a key that doesn't exist on my keyboard and ignores several others that do. You can't have just one layout for all the different languages out there.

In other news, I've been using dvorak on and off for a while now, but I'm still using qwerty most of the time for speed reasons :). My dvorak speed has gotten much better since I first tried it, though.

- Gerry
09-30-2005 at 05:01 PM
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falken
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trick wrote:
Well, it seemed interesting until I looked at the so-called international version, which is a joke. I'm supposed to use AltGr every time I want to write an , or (in addition to Shift if I want capital letters), whose keys are also spread out randomly (they're all vowels, btw) ? Not to mention the fact that the layout uses a key that doesn't exist on my keyboard and ignores several others that do. You can't have just one layout for all the different languages out there.

The Asetion web page has been updated answering some of your criticisms about the international layout.
09-30-2005 at 09:34 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I'm going to get one of those keyboards with the little screens in the keys and swap between QWERTY and Dvorak and whatever else. The device, I believe, also takes games into account - one of the demo pictures had Quake 3 icons on the active keys.

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10-01-2005 at 08:49 AM
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Malarame
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I'm going to get one of those keyboards with the little screens in the keys and swap between QWERTY and Dvorak and whatever else. The device, I believe, also takes games into account - one of the demo pictures had Quake 3 icons on the active keys.
I believe you're talking about the Optimus keyboard, which does look really interesting. According to the website, it'll be released next year, but it'll be really expensive. Hopefully by the time I graduate it'll be a little cheaper. By that time I'll need a new computer and I'll be able to spend a nice amount on one.

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10-02-2005 at 12:40 AM
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SbCl3
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I also use dvorak (wow! no idea so many of us used it...). All of that good stuff they are saying is true. However, I recommend switching on vacation or summer, because after a while you will forget qwerty, and your job or school (like mine...) will restrict you from using it.

I could type 80 wpm in qwerty, and in just a month i'm up to 50 in dvorak. My hands definitely feel much more relaxed.
10-05-2005 at 10:31 PM
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trick
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falken wrote:
The Asetion web page has been updated answering some of your criticisms about the international layout.
Hm, okay. Well, my criticism wasn't about your solution to the every-language-on-one-layout problem (which isn't really that bad, considering), but the fact that you collected them all into one layout in the first place. The international layout simply does not work for norwegian, and although I don't know about the other languages since I don't write in those, I imagine at least some of them have similar problems. The best solution would be to allow for localized layouts, in stead of shoehorning them all into one. (I don't expect you to create all these localized versions all by yourself, of course.)
Malarame wrote
I believe you're talking about the Optimus keyboard, which does look really interesting.
It does look really interesting, but would you believe that, after they went to all that trouble of creating a keyboard that is remappable to "all" layouts, the keyboard is missing a key (between the left shift key and Z in qwerty) that's crucial for the norwegian dvorak layout to work ? :( I sent them an email about it, but got no reply. Not that I'll ever afford one of those, of course ..

- Gerry

[Last edited by trick at 10-06-2005 01:40 PM]
10-06-2005 at 01:37 PM
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If you want a real incentive to learn how to type -- either with a new keyboard layout, or for anyone you know just starting out -- nothing motivates like Zombies. If Mavis Beacon isn't doing it for you, you should try "The Typing of the Dead". It is the light gun game "The House of the Dead 2", only with keyboards instead of guns. It was originally made for the Dreamcast, so you can see the characters in the game with the systems strapped to their backs. Each monster has a word superimposed on it, and every letter you type correctly is one "hit" with your "gun."
10-06-2005 at 05:55 PM
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Ah, I have had a lot of fun with Typer Shark myself.

Game on,

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10-06-2005 at 06:04 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I get a little bit concerned about typing programs that emphasise speed over accuracy, at least when you're starting out. It strikes me that there's a reason why most of the typing programs don't bother to score you on time until you've demonstrated decent accuracy.

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10-07-2005 at 06:08 AM
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Penumbra
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Hmm, true. But I thought "Type quickly _and_ accurately, or get eaten by a Zombie" was pretty good :)

I find my biggest problem in those typing games is pressing backspace to correct a mistake, which then is counted as a second mistake. I wonder if they made a typing game along the lines of a music rhythm game, like DDR or Amplitude. Those games already reward accuracy, but enforce a specific tempo. But then, "typing to the music" might not be such a good thing either.

[Last edited by Penumbra at 10-07-2005 06:00 PM : dang Word "smart" quotes....]
10-07-2005 at 04:42 PM
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Actually, you see stuff like that in Mavis Beacon with the metronome lessons, so it's not that far fetched. It'd actually be an ideal format for a typing game, now I think of it - start at a slow speed, where hitting the right button is more important than getting it fast enough, then add more letters and crank up the speed.

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10-07-2005 at 05:49 PM
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Hmm... I am probably the weirdest typist I know. I believe that I type in the general vicinity of 100+ WPM, yet while typing I make lots of typos that I correct instantly by deleting a few letters or the whole word and retyping it. I type a lot (over ten million keys per year) and I never get tired of it. Typing is just as easy as speaking for me. I don't know if my speed would increase very greatly if I didn't make all of those typos that I had to correct, but I feel comfortable with my current typing status and therefore I don't feel that switching to DVORAK would be a good idea. After all, I like the idea of being able to type on computers that aren't configured for DVORAK. Although using DVORAK would make me feel like a cool dude, I think I'll pass.

This post may not really be helpful, but it's my personal opinion so I figured I'd share. Besides, maybe someone in a similar situation might hear my story and agree with me.

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10-09-2005 at 09:40 PM
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