disoriented
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File: Horn Hold.hold (777 bytes)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

In the attached hold, try going north into the next room with your sword in different orientations. Try sword facing northwest.

- Beethro appears on top of another Beethro.
- Depending on sword orientation, the game won't always let you switch characters with the tab key or by clicking on a clone.

(Mac beta 5.1.1.436)

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34th Skywatcher

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hyperme
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Yeah that is strange. Is this problem new to 5.1.1?

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Dragon Fogel
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Imported the hold into 5.1.0.6512 and the same problem happens.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 09-16-2022 03:26 PM]

hyperme
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How this happens:

1. When you toot a squad horn, it finds the nearest unblocked entrance tile, and puts a clone on it.
2. When a clone is placed in a room, it will activate objects. This includes horns (and potions which seems dodgy). You can't put a clone on a horn with a potion, but the horn doesn't care.
3. The clone toots the horn. The algorithm for finding open entrances doesn't check for the player, so oops a clone (or soldier if a blue horn was tooted) is placed on the player.

To the DROD people, I ask: should Horns have the same restrictions as Double Potions, where they will consider tiles containing horns and potions blocked?

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Xindaris
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It seems like it should be pretty rare-to-never that one needs to both put a potion-type object on a room edge and to have the player step on a horn that'd be blocked by it. If no existing rooms will be ruined by it, I'd say go for it if it's easier than (say) adding an exception to the "open entrance check" for a player on a room edge. But I also see very little puzzle potential in potion-type objects at the room edge blocking horns, little more than a one-use "whoops gotcha", so it's not something I'd specifically ask for if that exception is actually easier or less obtrusive.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-16-2022 10:36 PM]

disoriented
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hyperme wrote:
To the DROD people, I ask: should Horns have the same restrictions as Double Potions, where they will consider tiles containing horns and potions blocked?

That seems reasonable to me.

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hyperme
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Xindaris wrote:
It seems like it should be pretty rare-to-never that one needs to both put a potion-type object on a room edge and to have the player step on a horn that'd be blocked by it. If no existing rooms will be ruined by it, I'd say go for it if it's easier than (say) adding an exception to the "open entrance check" for a player on a room edge. But I also see very little puzzle potential in potion-type objects at the room edge blocking horns, little more than a one-use "whoops gotcha", so it's not something I'd specifically ask for if that exception is actually easier or less obtrusive.

This is very much not a puzzle potential issue, it's a "which of these dodgy results is least bad" issue. Stopping horns from placing monsters on the player is easy. However, that still means that clones that are placed on a room edge horn or potion will consume that item. You could construct an equally non-intuitive room based on that behaviour as compared to one where horns and potions block entrances.

My own thoughts are that it's far more consistent for horns/potions to always block the placement of clones (or soldiers), even if they don't come from a potion, as opposed to the Horn Chain situation. Neither result is particularly transparent, however.

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Nuntar
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hyperme wrote: Stopping horns from placing monsters on the player is easy. However, that still means that clones that are placed on a room edge horn or potion will consume that item.

I'm confused about what is being envisaged here. Are you suggesting the behaviour should be that if the nearest room entrance contains a potion, the clone appears on that entrance and removes the potion? I thought disoriented was suggesting that the entrance should be regarded as blocked, so that the clone appears at the next closest entrance, or the horn fails if there are no unblocked entrances. That's the behaviour I would prefer, too.

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hyperme
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Nuntar wrote:

hyperme wrote: Stopping horns from placing monsters on the player is easy. However, that still means that clones that are placed on a room edge horn or potion will consume that item.

I'm confused about what is being envisaged here. Are you suggesting the behaviour should be that if the nearest room entrance contains a potion, the clone appears on that entrance and removes the potion? I thought disoriented was suggesting that the entrance should be regarded as blocked, so that the clone appears at the next closest entrance, or the horn fails if there are no unblocked entrances. That's the behaviour I would prefer, too.

The current behaviour is that a clone can appear on a horn or potion, and that item will be used. The fixed behaviour is too treat horns and potions as blocking objects.

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mrimer
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PR

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disoriented
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This issue is still present in 5.1.1.550 final for Mac.

In the test hold, entering the northern room with sword NW still shows Beethro on top of another Beethro, and tab doesn't work to switch clones, nor does clicking on another clone.
Entering with sword W results in an inescapable death situation.

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34th Skywatcher

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hyperme
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This went into 5.2, not 5.1.1, so that is as expected.

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