robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 842
Registered: 09-01-2004
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I like the idea if you conquered all challenges, a "Hold Perfected" sign will appear. (As suggested here)
I don't know if it's going to be implemented,
but it reases some questions.

We now got:
Conquered (no sign (not needed)) => going through the final "stairs" or "end level"-script
Hold Mastered (sign) => Conquered the hold AND conquered all secret rooms
Post Mastered (no sign) => (no specific definition) But in theorie: or conquered all possible rooms in a hold, or conquered all posiible rooms behind a master wall
Perfected (no sign) => Conquered all challenges

The thing is, "if" it's going to be implemented, the rules should be clear on what it is.

How is post-mastery defined?
And perfected, is this only challenged based, or do you want post mastery as well.

Possible sugestion:
Hold Conquered => going through the final "stairs" or "end level"-script
Hold Mastered => Hold Conquered + Conquered all secret rooms
Hold Post-Mastered => Hold Mastered + Conquered every room in hold (this would be nice then)
Hold Perfected => Hold Post-Mastered + Conquered all challenges

An other idea is using the term: "Perfect-Post-Mastery or PPM"

(You also might to think about rooms that can't be conquered, like some rooms in the post mastery area of TCB, to add a "just visit"-mark or something)


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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

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My preference would be for "Hold Perfected!" to appear when all challenges are completed, regardless of what else has been done. It's a worthy achievement that should be rewarded by a sign, and it's up to the architect whether a particular hold should make perfection require postmastery (TSS, TCB, Curiosity, Mirror Me This) or mastery (JtRH) or completion (Pass the Hold Around) or not require completion at all (KDD, Foursquare, Elemental Showcase).

Postmastery generally refers to clearing one or more postmastery levels. It doesn't require visiting every room; I suppose you could use TVTropes' term "100% Completion" to refer to the latter.

Oh, and I fully intend to fix the unconquerable room in The Undercity so it can be conquered.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-10-2015 04:21 PM]

Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster

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Not sure. I think perfection should require mastery in the same way that mastery requires conquering. The architect doesn't need to mark the final room as secret to do that, it's part of the definition. So it's more consistent to be defined as "mastered + all challenges."

Postmastery is too vague to be a useful classification.

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Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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[Last edited by Pinnacle at 02-10-2015 03:53 PM]

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

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I'm inclined to think that as sign should show when all challenges are completed regardless of other variables. At most, require that the hold be conquered. But requiring the hold to be mastered before 100% challenge completion is acknowledged doesn't make sense. It presupposes that a player will hunt for and complete all secrets before doing the same for challenges. I for one enjoy the challenge hunt much more than the secret hunt and am more inclined to go after 100% challenge completion first. Challenges and secret rooms serve a similar purpose, I don't see why we should prefer one over the other.

If the issue is over the word "perfected" then there is another option. We can have some other words for the 100% challenge completion sign "Challenged surmounted" or some such.

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Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
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For what it's worth, to me, "Perfected" would imply:

-Hold conquered and mastered
-All possible rooms visited
-All possible rooms conquered
-All challenges completed

To be clear, this is a personal definition and I'm not incredibly concerned with whether my doing the above is marked with flashing text - that would be nice, but if it's considered too much trouble to do I won't be particularly disappointed. I'm just bringing it up for discussion.

Implementation-wise, the issues I see here are with "possible to explore" rooms and "possible to conquer" rooms. It should be entirely doable to check those on CaravelNet in the same way that a room can be marked as scoreable or not; the problem would be making this something that non-subscribers can see, without breaking backwards compatibility.

Anyways, getting back to the more immediate question, I agree with different checks for "Mastered" and "Challenges Completed", as they're different-but-sometimes-related things. An official "Perfected" status would encompass both. On the other hand, if it only required those two factors, you'd see the "Perfected" pop-up immediately after a pop-up for the other one. So perhaps we could just leave them as separate and have "Perfected", like "Post-mastered", be a purely conversational term. If there were going to be a Perfected notification, I would prefer that it account for full exploration and conquering rather than just two things that will give you notifications anyways.

A related point: perhaps there could be a Challenges count/percentage under the Secrets percentage on the ending screen? I'm not sure how that would look, though.

Nuntar wrote:
Oh, and I fully intend to fix the unconquerable room in The Undercity so it can be conquered.

Just as an aside, I remember there being two unconquerable rooms there. Not that I recall the exact locations offhand.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Proposed solution:

Message "All Challenges Completed" that appears just like Hold Mastered/Conquered the first time when every challenge is completed.

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