Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: Nameless Fortress.drh (87.2 KB)
Downloaded 60 times.
License: Public Domain

This is the hold resulting from the collaborative building game found here. It's now completely finished!

One unusual feature of this hold is that it gives a choice between playing in Normal or Hard difficulty (in Hard, all score checkpoints are multiplied by 3/2). I've verified that Normal difficulty is completable, but need someone else to test Hard

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-05-2013 11:34 PM]

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
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How great to see that this hold has finally been posted! So far, I'm loving it. However, I've found quite a big flaw:The rewards seem a little big for such little sacrifice... It makes the rest of the level very easy.
Otherwise, great hold, and many thanks and congratulations to all who helped build it!

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: Nameless Fortress.drh (87.2 KB)
Downloaded 41 times.
License: Public Domain

Wow, nice catch. I've attached a fixed version to the first post. I've enlarged the pressure plate so both bombs stand on it -- now if you try the cheat in Midootje's secret, the black gate will close and you can't reach the rewards. I also noticed and fixed another problem with the same room - the script of the character that changes the bombs between 20% and 100% was missing the instruction to loop.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-17-2014 04:32 AM]

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I'm getting a File Corrupted error when I try to import this.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Odd. I've tried exporting it again; see if that helps.

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50th Skywatcher

navithmastero
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 596
Registered: 01-03-2012
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Nuntar, the problem may not be at your end. It may have been a faulty download, but anyway, the new hold works fine.

-nm

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Member of the Snake Appreciation Society

One of your local HAs.

My stuff:

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Yeah, it looks like the problem wasn't with the file, but that it isn't compatible with whatever build I had updated to. I ran the patch for the current build and it seems fine now.

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Oh, one more thing. I have no clue why, but every time I save a game, then restore it after I quit and restart DROD:RPG, all rooms are restored to their original state. This means that you can (just an example) collect the +2 ATK in The Silent City: 3N1W endlessly. Somehow, this seems to also make the hold trivial. Any fool trying this trick a ton of times in a row will have not a single problem conquering the hold.

Edit: some extra, perhaps useful information is that the map also stops displaying already discovered rooms. The weird thing on this feature is that it does display the amount of rooms you've already visited.
E.G.: I save/restore in 3N1E. All rooms are restored to their initial state. Rooms explored: 18, rooms visible on map: 1. Stats retained throughout the save.

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 01-16-2013 02:34 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Sounds like a bug. Does it happen with other holds?

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Definitely only this hold, as I often save a game to restore it a day or a few days later.

On a side note, is your walkthrough stating the optimal path or the path you would follow? Cause it seems to me

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

That's really weird. I'd suggest reporting it on the RPG Bugs board, as I can't think of why that should occur.

I certainly don't claim that my walkthrough represents the optimal solution -- there are far too many choices for it to be possible to be certain about that, and I'm not the best at this game anyway. But I did overlook the exploit you mention. Very nice. Now I'm torn as to whether I should eliminate it

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

3:50 AM, no idea why I'm not fast asleep yet, but consider this bug reported. I think developers will have a hard time fixing this though, as it only occurs in one out of all known DROD:RPG holds.
Anyway, I do believe you're just messing with me about The Silent City: 3N1W, because whoever put that breakable wall there must've realised it was the solution to getting the 2 ATK early but then again that might just be the tired version (gah, DROD jargon) of me not recognizing any sarcasm.

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 01-16-2013 02:59 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

No sarcasm. Hyperme built that room, so you'd have to ask him whether it was intentional. With a very few exceptions, we didn't share strategies for our rooms during the building process.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: Nameless Fortress.doc (69.5 KB)
Downloaded 112 times.
License: Public Domain

And, at last, here is the remainder of my walkthrough, up to 100% completion of the hold!

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50th Skywatcher

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Nuntar, you can slightly improve your walkthrough by handling 3N differently. By dealing with the hot tiles first (at slightly higher cost than when you do it later), I make up the difference just in cleaning the central area. If I follow the rest of your route, I end this room with 165/23/19. By the time they synch back up, I'm at 30/26/22.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Nice catch. Though I'm not updating the walkthrough, even if a major improvement turns up; I wasn't trying to find the optimal solution, just to get a sense of what region the best final stats would be in, so that I could stat up the bonus boss appropriately. Anyway, a gain of 29 HP isn't even one point in DROD:RPG's scoring system

* * *

I have the next update almost ready to post -- I'm just waiting on permission to use the Elixir graphic. This update contains fixes for all the small problems I noticed when revising the walkthrough (of which there were not very many). I'm happy for this to be the final version. In which case, the only thing stopping this going to Holds is that at least one person needs to play through Hard difficulty -- confirming that it's possible to complete is the main thing, though posting stats before each boss would be extremely helpful, so I can decide whether the raft of changes I've made since returning after my absence has made the later levels a bit too easy or too tough.

So... please? This has been in the works for two years and I just need a small bit of help to get it over that final hurdle....

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50th Skywatcher

Lamkin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 606
Registered: 08-17-2008
IP: Logged

The only thing stopping it? Ah, didn't know that. That is good news. Then I should probably play through this one as I've griped before about RPG holds having a tendency to sit unfinished in Architecture.
The bad news is I'm really out of practice with RPG...haven't played in well over a year, I believe. But I'll give hard difficulty a shot and see if I can make it through. How about we say you give me until this Sunday.
Will post back when I have some stats.

Edit: I haven't been able to get anywhere with this yet.

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[Last edited by Lamkin at 01-28-2013 12:11 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

mrimer has given permission for the Elixir graphic from Nobard's Hold (modified from the Large Potion graphic) to be used in this hold, and I have attached the current version to the first post. I may have forgotten one or two, but I think these are the changes:

* Added graphics for Elixir, Attack Emblem and Defence Emblem
* Fixed Elixir script so "That felt refreshing!" speech is attributed to player
* Fixed scripting for easter egg in BS 2S1E
* CC 1S - yellow doors can now be opened by orb in SW entrance, making the choice of which way to go round the loop more even
* RG 3W - blue door can be opened by orb from the south
(The last two changes have no effect on the walkthrough route.)

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Oh, I have one more detail to add: if you have more DEF than Kekkajin's ATK, but you block his pathway with your sword, he won't run because you're standing in the way. An easy press of R will let you do it differently, but maybe just for aesthetics it would be nice if he could run around your sword.

Edit: And done! Finished Normal mode. Maybe some day I will try Hard, but I thought this was hardcore enough as it was. Final comments:
- The Silent City: perfectly balanced. Many choices and a great bunch of fun for the true optimizer.
- The Forgotten Temple: Pretty much the same story. Not too easy with the brained boss, but leaves space (read: HP) to breathe.
- Disused Sewers (1st part): Hard in comparison to earlier levels and the latest levels. This definitely took me the longest to figure out an optimal route.
- Collapsed Chamber: - Disused Sewers (2nd part): - Broken Stairwell: - The Ruined Gatehouse: - The Nameless Fortress: - The Lost Treasure Vault:
All in all: So far the best hold for optimizers in my opinion. However, bosses like Bahamut, BloodWorm, Kekkajin and Asha deserve a solid improvement, since they cost less HP than a strong 'normal monster' on their respective Levels. This is what made the hold quite easy once the Long Sword and Knight Shield were retrieved. (much) Harder bosses would have made the difference between being able to get all the freebies on the next Level and having to stock up for bosses, which would have been more challenging and fun in my opinion.

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 01-28-2013 05:31 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Midootje wrote:
Oh, I have one more detail to add: if you have more DEF than Kekkajin's ATK, but you block his pathway with your sword, he won't run because you're standing in the way.

Noted. I'll fix this in the next update.

Edit: And done! Finished Normal mode.

Well done, and many thanks for the feedback I'm glad you enjoyed the hold so much.

The later levels were clearly easier for you because you were able to get the secret stash in CC -- which suggests to me that you might prefer Hard difficulty As I haven't solved that puzzle myself, I find Bahamut to be a difficult chokepoint, so I'm not going to make him any tougher. (And, of course, there's nothing I can do about the Bloodworm.) I would like to make Kekkaijin and Asha tougher, but only if I can be sure it will still be possible to get past them on Hard difficulty.

How did you get the Speed Potion out of RG:1W? Did you use the Pickaxe, or did I overlook something obvious?

I'll check the scripting for LTV 1S1W as soon as I'm home -- what you said may indeed be an error.

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
How did you get the Speed Potion out of RG:1W? Did you use the Pickaxe, or did I overlook something obvious?

Well the solution to this problem is very simple (and maybe unintended?). To get the Speed Potion without losing any accessory, just place your accessory on any spot. Then, leave your sword on any spot. This way, you won't drop the trapdoor so you can take the Potion and go back over the trapdoor. I used the pickaxe where it was intended to be used (NF 3W).
If you didn't intend for this to be possible, you could make a custom monster that has 100000 ATK and 1 HP to block the Potion off, when combined with a force arrow.

Nuntar wrote: I'll check the scripting for LTV 1S1W as soon as I'm home -- what you said may indeed be an error.

That would be nice. I was a bit disappointed when nothing happened here, even after I stepped on every single available square :p

Edit: oh, how mean! I was looking at the scripting in LTV to see where the mistake might be. I noticed a character stating varKekkajinFlee. Now it turns out that if you didn't kill Kekkajin when he was trapped behind the doors, he will give you 345 extra ATK for the last boss fight?! No fair, I'm going to have to replay the hold from the end of Broken Stairwell to see if I can save a few thousand HP like that

Nuntar wrote: As I haven't solved that puzzle myself, I find Bahamut to be a difficult chokepoint, so I'm not going to make him any tougher. (And, of course, there's nothing I can do about the Bloodworm.) I would like to make Kekkaijin and Asha tougher, but only if I can be sure it will still be possible to get past them on Hard difficulty.

Alright, seems fair. However, what you could do is only make the bosses a little harder for Normal difficulty. This may sound strange, but playing Hard mode will cost you so much HP before these bosses that they are fine as they are. In Normal mode, however, they become almost trivial if the player optimizes a little (not even very well). That's why maybe only in Normal mode they could be buffed up, which I'm sure is very easy to script with one character for every boss. It would add to the challenge, so that even Normal mode doesn't get too easy once you get past the hardest parts.

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 01-28-2013 04:28 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Midootje wrote: Well the solution to this problem is very simple (and maybe unintended?)

Yes, that's unintended Thanks for spotting it -- I'll fix this, too, in the next update.

That would be nice. I was a bit disappointed when nothing happened here, even after I stepped on every single available square :p

Hmm. Looks like I was being lazy and avoiding having to script additional dialogue for Gray Strides that would make sense if you'd already entered 1S1W. No excuses -- I'll fix this as well.

Alright, seems fair. However, what you could do is only make the bosses a little harder for Normal difficulty.

Yes, that's definitely an idea. I'll wait and make a decision on that once I have stats from someone getting that far on Hard.

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50th Skywatcher

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

What is the NPC in DS 3S4W supposed to do? Because I don't have him doing or saying anything.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

He closes the doors if you enter the room after starting Level 4.

(In the original version of the room, he required you to give up the Invisibility Potion, and if you did, you could get both the ATK and DEF stashes. I decided this was unfair and removed that scripting so you could get one stash without giving up the Potion, but made it a choice of one or the other.)

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

I've replayed the hold after the changes that were made, however this time, when I enter TLV 1W and return, I don't get Gray Strides cutting me a way through the Eastern rubble in Entrance. He doesn't even appear after I visited 1S1W.. Might this have to do with me using the hand bomb on Gray Strides in order to get to the last Power Square ASAP?

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

That's correct, if you use the Hand Bomb on him he won't reappear

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Hum... I guess you don't really need someone to play through the hard version anymore? If that is the case I'll probably wait until it gets released before playing

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Why would you think that? I thought I could hardly have been clearer when I said that testing Hard difficulty (and possibly modifying the bosses' stats after testing) is the only thing left that needs doing so the hold can be released. That is still the case.

I've uploaded a new version, fixing all the remaining problems that have been pointed out in this topic:

* Kekkaijin now has 400 ATK, and flees only if the player has at least 400 DEF.
* Kekkaijin flees via the square to his SW, where it's impossible for the player to have his sword.
* If you spare Kekkaijin's life, he gives the player 200 ATK for the bonus boss, but this ATK only lasts in Khattam-Shud's room AND it is removed before Khattam-Shud's score checkpoint.
* It should no longer be possible to take the speed potion out of RG:1W by disarming yourself.

So, again, if any of our RPG testers have any spare time, please play the hold on Hard difficulty and post your stats, in particular at the start and end of Levels 6 and 7. If I have to, then I'll give it a go myself, but as I'm not good enough at normal DROD to solve the puzzles in CC, I doubt I'd be able to succeed.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

I will play through it then It will be an interesting challange. I will play through The forgotten castle in HA first, though.

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

I was just trying to play Hard difficulty like you asked. No matter how well you play, though, I don't think the hold is conquerable if you start with 0 ATK and 10 DEF.. I think you made a tiny mistake with the character in TSC: Entrance.

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.