Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

File: MLP fim.hold (10.7 MB)
Downloaded 70 times.
License: Public Domain

A hold I made that is based on MLP (fim!).

It took me more then 30 hours to make,

Custom graphics

Composing the end secret room music

Scripting

Making rooms

Corrupting all my files and losing 8 hours of work

Making a teaser that I deleted

Etc.

Fixed version!

The moving tut is fixed to.


____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

---

[Last edited by Seth at 07-08-2012 10:19 PM]

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

File: Moving tutorial.hold (34 KB)
Downloaded 63 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's a moving tutorial if you're new to moving with gravity down.

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

---

[Last edited by Seth at 05-22-2012 06:30 AM]

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

Fixed!

Mrimer helped me to uncorrupt my hold now you can enjoy this short hold.

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

As expected, there is some interesting potential here, and a whole mess of botched execution.


The whole idea of the jumping mechanic coupled with key sequences that can trigger special abilities is interesting. Some of the potential of the idea is tapped in this hold.

The slipping mechanic is annoying, especially when you hide the state of the tile under the character with too much darkness. If you really want to keep it, make it automatically waste a turn before jumping when the player tries to jump. Better yet, get rid of it. You never explain why the slipping happens, either; I had to figure that out by experimentation.

I could've sworn we had rules about copyrighted images in holds on this forum. Did that change?

It's very frustrating and unintuitive to have the character controlled by the player move after everything else. Ideally it should move before enemies and so forth, as in normal DROD gameplay. Vanilla DROD is designed that way for a reason.

I really wished DROD had multiple undo while playing this hold. I think I'd feel this way even without the movement order issue. You could at least put in some checkpoints. Lots of checkpoints.

Frequently with these backgrounds it's difficult to tell what blocks are wall and what blocks are not. In particular, I had to do a lot of right-clicking on the Canterlot level.

Why do spells only work in one place? It makes no sense. We learn the spell, use it in one or two rooms, and then it ceases to work forever. I like the mechanic, but you should stick to it.

For that matter, why did QW go from being the Light spell to the High Jump spell?

Why does the gravity mechanic go away in Iner castle : 3E ?

Finally, I can't seem to progress past Iner castle : 1N ; there's just an empty room there with lots of white light.

There are also a bunch of polish issues with spelling, grammar, videos, and other things, but I think I've given you enough to think about for now.


P.S. It's considered good architectural practice to make beta versions of your holds Anyone Edit.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

---

[Last edited by Jatopian at 05-22-2012 12:07 PM]

The Architest
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 255
Registered: 05-25-2008
IP: Logged

I don't like MLP, but this hold was pretty interesting.
Jatopian covered a lot of things, but Canterlot level was really, really painful.

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

Jatopian wrote:
As expected, there is some interesting potential here, and a whole mess of botched execution.


The whole idea of the jumping mechanic coupled with key sequences that can trigger special abilities is interesting. Some of the potential of the idea is tapped in this hold.

The slipping mechanic is annoying, especially when you hide the state of the tile under the character with too much darkness. If you really want to keep it, make it automatically waste a turn before jumping when the player tries to jump. Better yet, get rid of it. You never explain why the slipping happens, either; I had to figure that out by experimentation.

I could've sworn we had rules about copyrighted images in holds on this forum. Did that change?

It's very frustrating and unintuitive to have the character controlled by the player move after everything else. Ideally it should move before enemies and so forth, as in normal DROD gameplay. Vanilla DROD is designed that way for a reason.

I really wished DROD had multiple undo while playing this hold. I think I'd feel this way even without the movement order issue. You could at least put in some checkpoints. Lots of checkpoints.

Frequently with these backgrounds it's difficult to tell what blocks are wall and what blocks are not. In particular, I had to do a lot of right-clicking on the Canterlot level.

Why do spells only work in one place? It makes no sense. We learn the spell, use it in one or two rooms, and then it ceases to work forever. I like the mechanic, but you should stick to it.

For that matter, why did QW go from being the Light spell to the High Jump spell?

Why does the gravity mechanic go away in Iner castle : 3E ?

Finally, I can't seem to progress past Iner castle : 1N ; there's just an empty room there with lots of white light.

There are also a bunch of polish issues with spelling, grammar, videos, and other things, but I think I've given you enough to think about for now.


P.S. It's considered good architectural practice to make beta versions of your holds Anyone Edit.

Thank you!

Yes This is beta and I will make everyone edit

That room is a bug I see now just restore to that room and go strait down for now until the next version is released I will make a checkpoint on every tile! (almost you'll see what I mean)

And it those images are on the internet??? Is it ok like in a wiki or something removing attach until further notice.

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

The Architest wrote:
I don't like MLP, but this hold was pretty interesting.
Jatopian covered a lot of things, but Canterlot level was really, really painful.

Yes really painful I'll try to make it better to understand.

I wanted people to look at the map more in this room but I'll try to point things out with lighting or something.

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

---

[Last edited by Seth at 05-22-2012 06:24 PM]

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1980
Registered: 10-23-2003
IP: Logged

Jatopian wrote:
The slipping mechanic is annoying, especially when you hide the state of the tile under the character with too much darkness. If you really want to keep it, make it automatically waste a turn before jumping when the player tries to jump. Better yet, get rid of it. You never explain why the slipping happens, either; I had to figure that out by experimentation.

This hold is constructed using my Porthole engine, so I can speak to some of its issues. The version of the editor (V16) that Seth is using is still a work-in-progress, so even though a lot of functionality is there, there are still several issues that remain to be addressed, including jumping in particular.

Right now the engine determines whether or not a player can jump in one of two ways:

1. Is the tile currently below me a wall? If so, I can jump this turn.
2. Did I attempt to move downward or fall last turn? If so, did my y-coordinate remain the same (implying I was blocked from going downward because there was a surface beneath my feet)? If so, I can jump this turn.

Method 2 is problematic because it's always a turn behind the player's input, giving you that "slip". Ideally, I should be doing all sorts of checks for different solid object types using Method 1, and that's what remains to be done. It would be nice if 4.0 scripting had a method to check if a tile was solid or not (that is, bumpable or non-bumpable).

Method 2 is included for completeness. With it, you will "slip" on things like yellow doors, but without it, you wouldn't be able to jump off of non-wall solid objects at all. There is a wubba that apears in the lower-right corner of the room that indicates whether or not you can jump on a given turn - this is included as a stopgap informational solution.

I should add that I've only seen the anyone-edit tutorial so far, not the main hold. I suspect that there are quite a lot of simplifications that can be made to the Porthole engine as it is used in this project. But that's another novel to write.

____________________________
http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 05-22-2012 06:25 PM]

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

I attached a version to the top with no room images.

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

I got the images from the MLP Wiki website, where they say no special attribution is needed to post Hasbro images there.

Does this mean that it's okay to include images from that website in my hold?

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-28-2012 12:30 AM : clarified]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5158
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

While I agree this hold could use more polish, the project as a whole is one of the most creative DROD holds I've seen. Keep creating, Seth!

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

Finished V2.1

Added graphics back

Celestia has a portrait

Fixed some spelling

Added new rooms

Fixed some script

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

Seth
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 264
Registered: 02-17-2012
IP: Logged

[Post Deleted] Brainiac1999 wrote:
The new version seems to have lost anyone edit. Could you please change it back to anyone edit?

I will do this but in my next and last patch I will turn it off.

EDIT:Forget that I will put anyone edit in next patch also.

The bad spelling is due to extremely fast typing.

____________________________
997 error exceptions in the code,
997 error exceptions,
you take one down, patch it around
1278 error exceptions in the code...

---

[Last edited by Seth at 07-08-2012 05:49 PM]

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

I haven't seen it yet and don't have time to look now, but I would like to offer the following advice while I can.

First, if you would like any assistance or support (design, graphics, mechanics, scripting, voice acting, etc.), I'd be happy to provide it...but that's only if you want it. I'll become available around the end of July.

I don't think it will be feasible for you to continue work on the hold, however. Unless things change drastically from their current state, you will not be allowed to publish this on CN. Last year I tried to put a FiM image into a compilation hold, just for my own amusement. Mike Rimer approved the image, but the hold administrators vetoed him and I was forced to remove it.

I know that Hasbro allows anybody to make derivative works of FiM characters. The only exception in thousands of cases has been when someone wants to sell mass-marketed merchandise (prints, animations, or clothing) which is not original artwork and includes FiM images or trademarks. In those cases, Hasbro still consents but you have to be licensed through them and give them a cut of the profits. Hasbro will not talk to you if you're not selling merchandise because it's a waste of their time, but the policy is clear given the overwhelming number of fan projects (particularly, free games, most notably Fighting is Magic which has been in production for about two years now).

I even dealt with criticism on the forum when I announced an intent to do a tribute to the Atari Adventure game in a DROD RPG hold, even though Adventure is abandonware, my work could not reasonably be confused with it, and I was more than happy to include copyright notices and legal disclaimers. I abandoned the project. (This despite the fact that there are several Metroid holds available through CN, which is a much clearer copyright transgression against a currently active game series, and one of the largest and most profitable game series in history. Go fig.)

Copyright law is something that Erik takes very seriously, and my impression has been that his point of view sets the tone for the forum. While I agree that it's wrong to copy software and pass it around rather than giving Caravel their due cut (when I pass out Caravel software I do it by purchasing added licenses), I don't see eye-to-eye with him on derivative works. I prefer the way Japan handles dojinshi, and I would point to Hasbro's amazing success with FiM as proof that acceptance of the remix culture increases profit without damaging your product. But my view is in the minority (here, at least).

Because of that, I'd strongly recommend scrapping DROD FiM and suggest using a different game engine to make an FiM game. There are dozens of great game engines appropriate for such a game, and the community has already made thousands of animated sprites of all sizes and ponies you can use. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to offer you some suggestions.

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

---

[Last edited by Trickster at 07-09-2012 03:47 AM]

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

The best part about this is we're trying to equate Caravel's protection of their own copyright with their attempt to avoid copyright infringement in published holds.

I mean, I'm not saying Trickster's wrong? Just, that we're discussing Caravel's protection of its own copyright as being overblown (and we know how I stand on this point) but then suddenly trying to argue that because Caravel's protection of its own copyright is crazy, that they should allow other copyrighted works in published holds.

I mean, I. What? What is even happening here? Why can't I defeat Air Man?

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
The best part about this is we're trying to equate Caravel's protection of their own copyright with their attempt to avoid copyright infringement in published holds.

I mean, I'm not saying Trickster's wrong? Just, that we're discussing Caravel's protection of its own copyright as being overblown (and we know how I stand on this point) but then suddenly trying to argue that because Caravel's protection of its own copyright is crazy, that they should allow other copyrighted works in published holds.

I assume "we" means "me" because I'm the only one talking about this topic here.

I'm not sure where you read Caravel copyright into what I posted above. I mentioned "I buy licences of DROD rather than distributing" to express that I can understand Caravel protecting their own copyright. That makes perfect sense to me, and I don't think their copyright protection is "crazy" as you put it.

I was referring only to derivative works, and my experiences on the forum with regard to derivative works. And all I said was that I disagree with the degree of inflexibility I've met (like when multiple users told me to abandon the Adventure project, which I did), and my sense has been that Erik sets the tone based on numerous stickied messages he has posted on this topic where he goes on at length about copyright: not just Caravel's but the concept in general.

I don't personally believe that derivative works are a bad thing when tacit approval is given, the work is free, or the spirit of the work is an obvious doujinshi with user-created content based on the concepts of the original. You should be able to copyright creative output, not ideas themselves, if those ideas are disclaimed to come from a different source. That sort of insanity is the kind of stuff that happens when some jerk copyrights the word "threepeat" so they get paid by sports announcers every time it's spoken.

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5158
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I personally think that including images of copyrighted materials in holds generally falls under fair use, and I'm personally okay with it.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

mrimer wrote:
I personally think that including images of copyrighted materials in holds generally falls under fair use, and I'm personally okay with it.

Although I certainly agree with the spirit of what you're saying here, I think some clarity is necessary.

The term "fair use" is a legal term and it has an extremely specific meaning. Images of copyrighted materials in holds would not, in most cases, fall under what is legally defined as "fair use" in US law.

That does not mean that images of copyrighted materials appearing in a hold would lead to legal action, nor does it mean that images of copyrighted materials appearing in a hold would necessarily be a violation of law.

It also doesn't mean that use of copyright images "should" be illegal, but that's a separate issue.

The way US law works is as follows. "Fair use", whereby you can use a portion of a copyright work without any legal repercussions, includes things such as "artistic critique". So, if you post a picture of an artwork you made, it's fair use for someone to take an image no larger than needed to illustrate the criticism being made and reproduce it in conjunction with their opinion about the piece. For example, I can take short snippets of a movie in low-def quality and post them online if each snippet is short (generally less than a minute, but there is no hard and fast guideline), and I use each snippet I post to make an argument about the content itself.

Other examples of fair use include: news reporting, creating public archives, and research or teaching purposes (with restrictions). Pretty much anything else is not fair use.

Fair use does not include parody. Parody is not fair use. If the parody is true parody, it may fall under fair use if the use of copyright materials is necessary in order to make the criticism clear. But if it isn't necessary to draw the parallels, or if the work is satire (a parody of one piece whose commentary is actually about a different subject), then it's not fair use. This is why Mad Magazine changes the names of movie titles and characters when they make fun of them.

Fair use does not include derivative works. The exception, again, would be if the only way to make the social commentary is to include copyright materials. An recent example of this was a dramatic parody of Nabokov's Lolita, written from the perspective of the stepdaughter Dolores (Lolita) and skewed in order to make the protagonist of the novel appear to be highly creepy and abusive. The parody was not well-written, but it still constituted fair use because its intent required the direct comparisons to the famous novel.

So there are actually three reasons I'm writing this:

1) To clarify that "fair use" has a specific meaning and it isn't generally what people assume.

2) To talk about what is legally actionable, which is a separate issue, but should be the main concern when Caravel publishes holds.

3) To talk about what "should be" the state of law in my personal opinion.

Let's segue to 2.

In practically all cases, if all of the following are true:
a) You aren't making money from a work.
b) You aren't misrepresenting your work as being associated with the original or otherwise officially sanctioned.
c) You aren't reproducing anything that the originator of the work has not put into public view already.
d) What you are producing does not include sizable portions of content which is sold or reserved for sale by the person or company.

...then there is no way you can be successfully sued for damages, and it is extremely unlikely that anyone would wish to. This is because the person or company cannot show that you have hurt their business or bottom dollar in any way.

In US law, they can still tell you to C&D, and they have the legal standing to do so. However, this comes with no penalties or fines if you're not profiting from it or hurting their business by it in the first place. It just means you have to remove the copyright content, or else face legal sanctions.

Here are the issues from Caravel's perspective.

1) If it's possible that the inclusion of copyright content in Caravel holds constitutes an actual reason why people decide to purchase a Caravel product, then this could be an problem, but this is a long shot. This is mainly because Caravel does not advertise its user-made holds other than bragging that they exist in large numbers. To an outsider, there is no lure to purchase Caravel content based on assuming you'll get, say, some Star Wars content. This means that free holds, even though they may require a pay engine like GatEB, are exempt from claims that "copyright violations make Caravel money" and "Caravel abuse of copyright costs our company money".

2) Nobody would assume a DROD hold is an officially sanctioned product of anyone other than Caravel. There's no way you could confuse a DROD hold with any other non-strategy-game product out there, especially visual media, and no reasonable person would assume that something appearing in a DROD hold means that there is a direct association with the company owning the copyright.

3) Even if (2) above were a problem, a disclaimer would suffice to make the distinction clear and that the content is used without permission and by the grace of the owner.

4) The strongest case in law comes from a company's actions. Hasbro, for example, has not only turned a blind eye to thousands of derivative works, it has expressly defended them both in official statements as well as by adopting fan-generated content for its own use in turn. If a company does not defend copyright in a multitude of cases similar to yours, they have a much weaker case if they decide to attack only you (and it seems highly unlikely that they would try). If you can find substantial examples of copyright use that you know a company is aware of but does nothing about, you are safe to use the copyright yourself in a similar context.

5) Finally, even if despite all the facts above, someone claims copyright infringement, the worst case scenario is the hold needs to be removed from download until it can be modified.

Granted, all of this is assuming these are user-generated holds and not holds Caravel is selling. It's a different ballgame in the latter case. But that's not what we're discussing.

To hit the last point, I think it should be expressly legal to make any derivative work as long as it is prominently disclaimed, features no copies of trademark, and contains only images, music, and the like which are generated independently of copying (though they can be nearly perfect copies anyway). This is how Japan does things, and it benefits companies and users alike. Hasbro knows this and this is why they have adopted not only a laissez-faire attitude toward fan-produced works (even erotica and works significantly different from the spirit of the intended work for its initial target audience), but openly encouraged them.

The Internet is making many companies shift position somewhat in how they pursue copyright issues, partly because it's too hard to prosecute every case, and partly because they now realize the remix culture actually makes them profit. So I hope that case law eventually follows this path and copyright restrictions relax substantially.

However, until that happens, it pays to know what your rights are. It's not fair use to publish a copyright image in a non-SmS hold in almost any case. However, it's not legally actionable, and even if it were, it would not lead to any negative consequences whatsoever for Caravel. Furthermore, you can easily predict response based on how the company reacts in similar circumstances.

The confusion people get is in thinking there is some written-in-stone "law" about right and wrong with copyright, and nothing could be further from the truth. We have judges and juries and such because all law is open for interpretation. The best way to judge risk is not to read the law, but to examine what happens to others in similar cases. How law is interpreted historically is much more important than what law says, and this is one reason why there are scads of laws on the books that are never enforced.

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

---

[Last edited by Trickster at 07-29-2012 06:43 PM]

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

Trickster's post is basically correct from what I can tell. As long as Caravel is merely hosting the holds in question and would take them off the Holds board in response to a C&D, no one could claim damages, so it's unlikely anyone would try. The only real danger is the email server going down for an extended time, but I don't know how long "extended" is in this context - certainly more than a few days.

I don't know how this would apply to use of a full copyrighted song in a hold, though.


In general, companies don't find it desirable to send out takedown requests right and left - allowing fans to spread mention of their properties far and wide, even if they use bits and pieces of the work to do it, is hardly ever a bad thing. I once put a silly "shoop da woop" face on an aumtlich avatar, just for use on this forum, and Erik asked me to stick a copyright notice in my post. Most companies would not consider this a worthwhile use of time (though this kind of copyright hyperconsciousness from him does support the idea that he meant to make AE media public domain, that is another discussion.)

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

Jatopian wrote:
I don't know how this would apply to use of a full copyrighted song in a hold, though.

No. You could be liable for damages in that case. It falls under my comment:

d) What you are producing does not include sizable portions of content which is sold or reserved for sale by the person or company.

Since you're breaking (d), think about it from the company's perspective. Caravel isn't making any money from it, but people who already own DROD are able to download the file in order to get a platform for listening to a song that the company is selling. This could potentially affect the company's bottom line (though I really don't agree that it does), and so they have a legal case. Don't put an entire copyright song into a hold. Or an entire movie featuring Queen Latifah on skis.

In fact, don't even put that last one into your Netflix queue.

Jatopian wrote:
I once put a silly "shoop da woop" face on an aumtlich avatar, just for use on this forum, and Erik asked me to stick a copyright notice in my post.

I was about to say that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard of until I realized Erik meant copyright the aumtlich, not the "shoop da woop" part.

I agree most companies would welcome such image appropriation, though they would likely be hostile toward someone making a paid game that uses the images without requesting permission first. But an avatar? Anything that spreads DROD interest affects Caravel positively, and I hate to break this to devteam, but people simply don't buy this game for the artwork. The only reason you wanted an aumtlich avatar is you play DROD, pure and simple.

(I do think the visual effects with lighting and weather are very pretty, just to be fair.)

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

---

[Last edited by Trickster at 07-29-2012 11:58 PM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5158
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Thanks for the thorough clarification and elaboration, Trickster. This sounds correct to me too, and I'll modify what I said above to the personal stance that architects can include snippets of copyrighted media in their holds published on CaravelNet as long as (1) Caravel does not appearing to be trying make money off the copyrighted media, and (2) this action can't be considered as hurting the copyright owner's bottom line.

As I've said previously, I'm also personally fine with people using Caravel's media in their forum avatars and sigs. Also, we typically allow including source or modified Caravel media in your own holds, as long as you provide us the courtesy of asking for permission and letting us grant it.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.