martz
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west.logan wrote:

martz wrote:
I do like the idea of additional points for finishing a hold, and taking it a bit further possibly a few more points for mastering it. I think it goes without saying that this should be a flat score for all rather than the first person to complete a hold gets the most points...

But if one was being consistent, the first to complete a hold would get more points than the others. However, I like your idea.

Again, I don't want to strip people of their first place medals. To be the first is certainly an achievement and should be recognized, but right now it seems like a double-reward to me. Every other gaming ranking system I've competed on gives a nod to the first person while still giving those who match it the same number of points so they can stay competitive.

What I meant at the end of my post was if you say the first to complete a hold gets 20 points, the 2nd 19 points etc. then you could just end up having this whole discussion again - to take the "Snakes to Death remastered" example, Tahnan would get the 20 points for finishing the hold first and no one else would be able to beat that.

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Tim
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I think that if your kind of "unfairness" is rectified, then I suggest that a greater handicap should be added for later players as well.

One could look at later players as "cheaters" because they already know how a room can be completed in fewer turns by looking at the demos. In fact, even now people are still looking at the high scores to see that a room could be done in lesser moves. How fair can that be to earlier players?

My scores, for example, are always at the very low ranks because everyone else (could) have watched my demos. So we want the scores to be fair, I'd suggest a score deduction of 10% for later players, with a minimum of 3 points.

Note: I am against any change in the current system (even if this current system gives a bonus to newcomers, as designed). But if we want to have it more "fair", I really think the current scores for later players should have penalties.

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[Last edited by Tim at 01-17-2012 05:01 PM]

west.logan
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Tim wrote:
My scores, for example, are always at the very low ranks because everyone else (could) have watched my demos.

I don't think I've ever seen a Tim demo.

You assume everybody copies and I still think you're too concerned with it anyway. That's going to happen regardless of whether the OFP is scored higher or the same and at the same time you're punishing people who don't copy. Like me. I always knew you were evil.

That's enough for me, I think I'm done. I'm still curious to see what mxvladi has to say, being a "newish" player compared to some who have had scores for 7+ years.

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Doom
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We wouldn't need the extra points for #1s if Drod had a perfectly fair, competitive scoring system where everyone got the same points for the same effort regardless of when they play a hold. Of course that's not an option here since free demo downloading is a core feature of CaravelNet and contradicts that goal pretty heavily in a turn based game.

I quite liked this Maurog's old summarization of the sniping discussion.


I don't have a strong opinion about extra points for first place scores -- maybe slightly against because there are in my opinion a lot of rooms that, while not trivial, aren't very hard to optimise and favour the first few players to play through a hold, skewing the total #1s on the high scores. I'd imagine the amount of first place ties without copying solutions (ie. just as innovative as the first one in most cases) is far greater than the amount of demo copying. Like, I was replaying TCB a while ago, trying to get decent scores on the way. The easy-to-optimise rooms (but not trivial) always had a lot of people with the best score. The hard-to-optimise rooms had only 1-2 people at the top, even for 3+ year old demos.

Jatopian
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I do not think new players need to be punished any more than they are already in this community. We have few quality holds of low difficulty, and the high scores are positively calcified. michthro ragequit in 2007 and still holds #8 on the high scores.

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Banjooie
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I like that Michthro's up there, since his concerns about sniping--they've had over four years to snipe him and clearly it doesn't work.

12th Archivist
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Jatopian wrote:
michthro ragequit in 2007

Was this over the course of the Highscore Morals thread, or was did he express his frustrations mostly in a single post?

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Jatopian
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12th Archivist wrote:
Was this over the course of the Highscore Morals thread, or was did he express his frustrations mostly in a single post?

Man, I don't know. I don't want to dig it all back up in case we go back to the wait-1-week thing. Well, except this, because it was weirdly prophetic:

Banjooie wrote:
Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that Michthro (What scares me is I think this is the second time you have descended into some gurgling madness over high scores) could in theory QUIT THE GAME, and still keep #1 for a significant period of time simply because he has permanently optimized a great deal of rooms.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 01-18-2012 06:31 PM : what is formatting how does it work]

Syntax
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I personally think copying is fair game as the effort required must surely become pretty tedious eventually and will never get you to top scorer.

That's also why I think outright #1s should have more points as is now as they (usually) require innovation.