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zex20913
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Sorry for the double post, but...

Announcement wrote: Be excellent to each other.

I think we should all keep this in mind.

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03-01-2007 at 01:37 AM
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NiroZ
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I think I would be closest to the LarryMurk camp, although the things I want are to:

Be able to see demos when I go "how in the *#&^ did they do that? Like when I first came across the green door and mud/tar exploit, or in that highscore I was talking about before.

Participate in the highscores, and feel like I am doing something worth while. I know I'm never going to get into the top 50, let alone the top 10.

For the forum to not tear itself to shreds arguing over this. This is a sensitive topic, but let's try to not make this personal, or make it possible to make it personal.

As a side note, I admit that from time to time I have tie number 1's. The reason is that in order for me to figure out how someone did what they did, I have to copy it and play around with it, and the fact that the demos are submitted to caravelnet is inevitable, unless I disable caravelnet, in which case those demos will be submitted next time I do a full score upload.
03-01-2007 at 02:26 AM
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Tahnan
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Syntax:

I almost modded up your post in which you said,

Syntax wrote:
michthro, you have issues. [...] A game. Get over it. My disappointment in you is extreme, and my anger over your snide tactics even more so. [...] Sort your head out.

because what you said is so true, and michthro so needed to hear it. But you lost me at:

Syntax then wrote:
I will no longer upload my demos.

Just because michthro's a jackass--and let's not mince words, he's a jackass--you shouldn't feel driven away. Hell, when he said,

michthro wrote, in another thread:
I did a lot of sniping myself by way of reclaiming lost #1s from snipers.

he lost all moral high ground in this discussion. "He shot me in the leg last week, so I went over to his house and shot him in the leg" isn't a legitimate legal defense; neither is "well it's OK for me to snipe people who did it to me; but I'm not going to let people go sniping me."

mrimer: I strongly urge you to make no changes to the old status quo, other than providing more information to the users of CaravelNet about demo downloads. If sniping needs to stop, let it stop by social pressure, not enforced technological solutions that leave LarryMurk unable to browse demos for fun, or let michthro start a petty little feud with Syntax, or what have you. I still don't even believe that sniping is the serious problem it's being made out to be: I believe that some of the people snipe some of the time, but not that all of the people snipe some of the time, or that some of the people snipe all of the time. If it's an occasional act by an occasional player, then in the immortal words of Fraulein Schneider in Cabaret: "So what?"
03-01-2007 at 02:46 AM
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Rabscuttle
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NiroZ wrote:
As a side note, I admit that from time to time I have tie number 1's. The reason is that in order for me to figure out how someone did what they did, I have to copy it and play around with it, and the fact that the demos are submitted to caravelnet is inevitable, unless I disable caravelnet, in which case those demos will be submitted next time I do a full score upload.

If you want to avoid uploading:
Don't actually leave the room. Instead, stop just before you would leave, hit enter and add 1 to get your movecount.
If you want to keep your demo for later, save it with f4 instead. (it is very frustrating if you forget to do this and then can't remember what you did.)

This also allows you to restart the room without having to restore.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 03-01-2007 03:54 AM]
03-01-2007 at 02:47 AM
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ErikH2000
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Please everyone stop with the personal attacks and name calling. If you want to argue, stick to the issues.

-Erik

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03-01-2007 at 02:54 AM
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eytanz
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Rabscuttle wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
As a side note, I admit that from time to time I have tie number 1's. The reason is that in order for me to figure out how someone did what they did, I have to copy it and play around with it, and the fact that the demos are submitted to caravelnet is inevitable, unless I disable caravelnet, in which case those demos will be submitted next time I do a full score upload.

If you want to avoid uploading:
Stop just before leaving the room, hit enter and add 1 to the movecount.

That won't avoid uploading, it will just avoid tying the #1.

If you want to keep your demo for later, save it with f4 instead. (it is very frustrating if you forget to do this and then can't remember what you did.)

This also allows you to restart the room without having to restore.

I don't understand this - how does this allow you to restart the room?

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03-01-2007 at 03:18 AM
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Syntax
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Please everyone stop with the personal attacks and name calling. If you want to argue, stick to the issues.

-Erik
Agreed. I was only retaliating in what could only be described as an instinctive reaction.

Tahnan: I appreciate your comments totally. My "I will no longer upload any of my demos" was a watered down version of my original "goodbye and so long". Targetting named players on an online forum really upsets me. Targetting people who have obviously dedicated more than enough time to the game than is healthy infuriates me. Your comments could not have been better timed. I appreciate them utmost. I guess Im just shocked to see my name as one of the 3 "most prolific cheats". I am a proud person. But mostly for what I have accomplished. I'm still utterly fuming and will probably be doing so for a while. Once I've calmed down, I hope to post a more objective response to the one I did which may be construed as excessive. Right now, I don't think it was.

Apologies if anyone thought I was rash, but yeah... if I had a choice right now, I'd walk. Say goodbye, and not look back. Move on. I don't mind rudeness, but lack of respect is the one thing I cannot tolerate.

And Thanan, cheers mate. So angry right now... but that post you made, made me feel so much better :)
03-01-2007 at 03:34 AM
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eytanz
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Syntax - just wanted to chime in and say that Tahnan is not the only person who appreciates you here.

The only reason I didn't say anything earlier is that I figured that the allegation was so ridiculous that it didn't need responding to. This is also the reason I think most of the people who agree with Michthro's proposal were not paying much attention to who he actually named.

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03-01-2007 at 03:37 AM
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Blondbeard
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Woah! I don’t like stepping in and talking for others (since that can certainly lead to misunderstanding), but it feels as if some of you guys just don’t understand michthro.

I would say: Of course he’s angry. From his stance I would guess it’s like he loves soccer, and enters a tournament, but to his horror he realises that many peoples seems to think that it’s okay to use your hands to play, which drastically changes the dynamics of the game. This gives other players an unfair advantage, and living in Europe I know that soccer can be ridiculously emotional (as can all kinds of sports). Another analogy would be if you play chess, and your opponent claims that the towers moves like queens. I think that would bother a serious chess player, and chess players tend to be pretty intelligent.

My guess would be that michthro actually knows how much easier it gets for him to acquire #1s if he snipes others, since he has tried it. The thing is though that to do this (download a demo, watch it, and improve on it) isn’t any fun for him. No matter what it just feels like cheating, and it isn’t fun. This feeling I know, because I have the same feeling. I don’t say that sniping is cheating, I don’t think sniping is cheating, but if I were to do it, it would feel like cheating, and thus spoil my fun.

The thing is that it just isn’t very fun to seriously compete against someone who uses a different set of rules either. I think most of us would find that pretty frustrating (I know I would). Thus he snipes the snipers, but that just doesn’t feel fun, and now he wants to cut off the access to his demos to those he thinks (knows) snipes him. Is that odd? No! Is that insulting? Not really. Has michtro (in my opinion) said things that can be insulting to those who don’t agree with him? Unfortunately, yes. I just don’t find this very surprising, since he is angry, and has a good (natural) cause to be so. Claiming that his reactions are odd since “this is just a game” is what feels odd to me.


Two things: My intention with this post wasn’t to insult anybody. If you do feel insulted please tell me, preferably by PM. And if michthro don’t like this post I will delete it, since the whole point of it is to back him up a bit.

03-01-2007 at 03:50 AM
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Rabscuttle
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eytanz wrote:
I don't understand this - how does this allow you to restart the room?

You don't leave the room at all. I will edit to make it clearer.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 03-01-2007 03:53 AM]
03-01-2007 at 03:53 AM
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Syntax
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eytanz wrote:
Syntax - just wanted to chime in and say that Tahnan is not the only person who appreciates you here.

The only reason I didn't say anything earlier is that I figured that the allegation was so ridiculous that it didn't need responding to. This is also the reason I think most of the people who agree with Michthro's proposal were not paying much attention to who he actually named.
Thanks. I mean that.

To be honest, I didn't even read any posts beyond michthro's naming one until fratropea's which happened to be the last one in the thread. I just saw red. I have a lot of respect for all players on this forum, and in particular newer high-scores such as jemann's Smitemastery 101 trapdoor #1 or Noma's outright Flibit's Flourish #1. I see those and it makes me happy.

VodkaAndCoke has had countless battles with fratropea, each killing off a few more moves. Female supremacy and all that. But you know what? it made the game fun. Something I'd happily watch. And yeah, fratropea and me too have had plenty.

On a male front, it's good to see stephen4louise back creating some amazing solutions. I learnt my goblin manipulation skills from him way before I saw my first "5th place tie". Heck, the first time that banner came up I asked on this forum what that meant.

eytanz: Thanks for your comments. I heartily appreciate them. I know we've not always agreed on certain things but yeah... that's why the word argument (proper meaning) exists. I doubt I'd ever leave the forums but if DROD becomes us versus a great player who can influence the rules, then I doubt I'll play much more. I utterly love this game and... well. Yeah. I'm still seeing red lol grrr... :/
03-01-2007 at 04:05 AM
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Syntax
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Blondbeard wrote:
Text based stuff
That's the point. No-one is using hands.
[EDIT]
That may have sounded brash. Point is it's extremely difficult to get a #1 even by watching all demos. That's why I don't see the issue. A #1 either requires a different technique or a new style solution.

[Last edited by Syntax at 03-01-2007 04:12 AM]
03-01-2007 at 04:07 AM
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zex20913
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Everything I want to say sounds personally biased in some direction.

Except this:

Snipe protection seems to be doing much more harm than good. Nobody will be happy with any implementation. Either at least one camp, or (potentially) many individual players.

If a big change MUST be made, I still like michthro's idea, even though it's been proven to bring about nastiness and bad feelings. It's an ogre of a solution. It gets the job done, but leaves everybody feeling a bit bad about it.

So I think it's for the best that no big demo-download altering change be made to the original system, and allow any "sniping" to happen. Perhaps add a "who has downloaded which of my demos" section. That way, we can hopefully still catch Clefrens without destroying gameplay or relationships.

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03-01-2007 at 04:13 AM
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Tahnan
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Please everyone stop with the personal attacks and name calling. If you want to argue, stick to the issues.
Point taken. I apologize for calling michthro a jackass; I was somewhat enraged to see Syntax threatening to leave because one person was acting irresponsibly, and--though not as angry as Syntax was--I overreacted a little as well.

But while my tone wasn't justified, I stand by the basic content of what I said. michthro seems to be so concerned with keeping his #1 scores that (a) he'd like to keep a serious competitor for them, namely Syntax, from having an advantage in taking them; (b) he has, by his own admission, used tactics that he finds morally reprehensible (his words: "plagiarism"; "rudimentary ethics"; "wrong") in order to keep them.

[Aside to Blondbeard: soccer analogy understood; and yet, there's michthro using his hands even while saying "No one should ever use their hands in soccer." It seems to me that, if one feels so passionately about soccer, one should (a) accept that the rules here are different than the rules elsewhere, and recognize that in this tournament there's nothing wrong with using one's hands, even if it's not quite "soccer"; (b) continue to not use one's hands, even though it means losing the match, because at least you know you played honestly; or (c) find another tournament to play in. If it's no fun to snipe, don't do it. And it's not like michthro's losing the entire match; it's a few #1s here and there.

Put another way: suppose someone said, "Using 'undo' while optimizing a room is cheating". Should we all stop using 'undo'? Should we stop allowing demos in which someone has used 'undo'? Or should we tell them: "I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's not the game we're playing here; the consensus 'round these parts is that 'undo'--not unlimited, of course, but 'undo'--is a legitimate technique"?]
03-01-2007 at 06:15 AM
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Banjooie
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Oh for god's sakes, people.

Nobody embroiled in a seven page HISSYFIT over a change that affects a grand total of maybe FIVE PEOPLE TOPS gets to get on a godsbedonkeybuggered moral high horse over this nonsense. I'm sorry. This entire thing basically boils down to the interests of five people.

As it stands, CaravelNet is so hideously biased towards the People Who Came First that we're pretty much guaranteed that the top 5, if not the top 20 will continue to harden over time. There IS an optimal score for each level by definition, which means rooms eventually become unscorable. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that Michthro (What scares me is I think this is the second time you have descended into some gurgling madness over high scores) could in theory QUIT THE GAME, and still keep #1 for a significant period of time simply because he has permanently optimized a great deal of rooms.

Short of some sort of bizarre alien system involving scoring being based on your choice of your ten best holds or some nonsense, thus allowing a new bit of s--

Hold on a tic. Let's say that you get to choose 10(Or some arbitrary number) holds. These are the ten-or-arbitrary-number holds upon which your score is based.

We take your average rank from those holds, and ONLY those holds count towards your ranking. There is some sort of benefit for picking newer holds to keep people from somehow optimizing ten-or-arbitrary holds and sticking to those for all time.

Does this fix sniping? Absolutely--it is no longer crucial to optimize every single room to its absolute best in order to stay on the top ten: Pick your arbitrary number of holds, and /master/ them. Then it becomes a race to hold your holds, (best part of this entire post was those three words), while deciding when to drop them for a fresher, but riskier one.

Suddenly, high scores become a game of strategy UNTO THEMSELVES.
03-01-2007 at 08:39 AM
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Briareos
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zex20913 wrote:
Snipe protection seems to be doing much more harm than good. Nobody will be happy with any implementation. Either at least one camp, or (potentially) many individual players.
While I'm pretty much trying to keep out of this brouhaha, it seems to me as if all this is about an implementation looking for a solution looking for a problem...

And, from the sound of it:

Today's experiment......... inconclusive.

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03-01-2007 at 08:43 AM
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michthro
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I like how everyone's making so much of the fact that I admit to sniping snipers. I did very little sniping. I'm talking about sometimes losing my cool and retaliating when I was sure I had just been sniped by someone I already had down as a sniper. Oh, btw: Some people have argued that I could only tell if someone's sniping by sniping myself. Actually, it's easy to watch demos without sniping. It's so easy that I'm surprised at the argument. You simply don't improve your score after watching. I watched a lot of demos after beating them, without further improving my scores. I've also watched a lot of demos after giving up, without then tieing the score.

Syntax: Everyone liked the system I proposed, even after I said I'd be blocking you. The way I was planning to apply the system is very reasonable, considering that demo-watching is highly debatable at the least. So it would mean that I'd block you, *because of your views on demo-watching, and the number of posted-dated #1 ties you are uploading*. Your reaction is by no means justified. I was expressing views that differ widely from the views you were expressing. Nothing happens until I point that out. How come?

Btw, how does your post-dated #1 tie uploading fit in with this "it's all about the beauty of optimal solutions, regardless of who comes up with them"? What *is* the point in that? If I have to watch a demo to see how something's done, I leave my score where it is.

Tahnan: I can see why you think I'm so concerned about #1s, but you're wrong. I happen to like the idea of optimising, and I do a lot of it. I'm competitive, but I don't mind losing. I mind losing unfairly. I wouldn't gain any advantage over Syntax, since I couldn't watch his demos either. How does that stop him from beating me fairly?

There's nothing wrong with being competitive, btw. I'm not the overly competitive one. Look around you on the forum for examples of people competing in an uncompetitive situation. The rank point system, for instance, is obviously not a contest, but some people turn it into one.

But you'll probably believe what you want to believe.
03-01-2007 at 09:09 AM
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Beef Row
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Banjooie wrote:
Hold on a tic. Let's say that you get to choose 10(Or some arbitrary number) holds. These are the ten-or-arbitrary-number holds upon which your score is based.

We take your average rank from those holds, and ONLY those holds count towards your ranking. There is some sort of benefit for picking newer holds to keep people from somehow optimizing ten-or-arbitrary holds and sticking to those for all time.

See, the thing is there already is a system based on your average rank. Which incidentally, is easier to break into than the high score system. So this just seems redundant.

In fact, a new player could get the top average rank in the game by picking one room and optimizing it to a #1, then repeating with another room, and another, and so on. Whereas suddenly the top 20 players are real dinosaurs... sure they have great scores, but they're very hard to change anymore. So a newbie could reasonably get ahead and stay ahead. Just so they emphasize the right stat.

Anyway, I'm wandering away from the point, which is that this idea essentialy just repeats the average rank stat, but with a chance for any given player to try to bias it. I'm not sure how that would help, its just too much like another existing metric.

BUT, if you really wanted to do this, you could easily start up a thread. Average rank per hold is already available, so, just get people to pick their holds, or even pick their best for them, and you can see if the highscore list even changes much. But of course, you don't care enough to do that. (Which is a perfectly healthy attitude, and a wise choice.)

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03-01-2007 at 09:16 AM
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NiroZ
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Further debating this issue brought up by Michthro will solve nothing.

Sometimes, even when you think you have the best response in the world, the best response is to say nothing. Even if you think it is the killer point that will help everyone understand, it won't, let me assure you.

Please, just drop it.
03-01-2007 at 09:18 AM
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michthro
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NiroZ wrote:
Further debating this issue brought up by Michthro will solve nothing.

Sometimes, even when you think you have the best response in the world, the best response is to say nothing. Even if you think it is the killer point that will help everyone understand, it won't, let me assure you.

Please, just drop it.
I will. Thank you. I have lost interest.
03-01-2007 at 09:26 AM
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silver
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Okay how's this for option G:

"non-scored" demos are stored on the server. if you download any demo (no matter what place you are and what place the demo is), all your subsequent uploads are non-scored.

FLMs don't care about score, so they have no problem standing by their original score in order to view everyone else's demos.

Competitive Campers won't be downloading other people's demos (unless they're 100% sure they're done optimizing) anyway...

the Wanting Optimized Rooms Mob will still get to see their demos moving towards optimization by sharing their results (and the results of the Competitive Campers) -- so they should be happy to have their rooms optimized even though they aren't getting points for it :)

so the list may look like:
user      #moves  score
WORM 1    181
WORM 2    181
WORM 3    181
CC 1      183     #1 - 17pts
WORM 4    183
CC 2      184     #2 - 14pts
CC 3      188     #3 - xxpts
FLM 1     200     #4 - xxpts

and so on

pro: everyone gets what they SAY that they want
con: can be "gamed" by use of another account, but that would involve someone lying about what they want (i.e. they fit into a 4th camp of blatant cheaters) ... and virtually every system is open to "gaming" of some sort. These people would be caught eventually, anyway, and in the meantime caravel gets double money from them.

(perhaps obviously, there needs to be a popup warning and yes/no box when downloading a demo. perhaps with a "never ask again" checkbox for people who intend to do it a lot)

(and, it's just an acronym, not an attack)


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[Last edited by silver at 03-01-2007 02:18 PM]
03-01-2007 at 09:54 AM
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Banjooie
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Beef Row wrote:
[Anyway, I'm wandering away from the point, which is that this idea essentialy just repeats the average rank stat, but with a chance for any given player to try to bias it. I'm not sure how that would help, its just too much like another existing metric.

This is the point. Every single person, new or old, has the opportunity to game this system, and hit the top 10, as long as they pick and choose their holds carefully. I don't see exactly what the problem is with everyone skilled enough being capable of hitting the top 10?
03-01-2007 at 10:05 AM
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AlefBet
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michthro wrote:
Everyone liked the system I proposed....
Let me go on record and say that I think that any blacklist-style system is very likely to be destructive to the CaravelNet community. There are too many antisocial behaviors, perceived antisocial behaviors, and ways to game the system introduced by such a thing. Disregarding all the juvenile "he snubbed me, so I'll lash back" potential and also the situations where such actions can be misinterpreted (which issues are not small IMO), there's also the delver who decides to blacklist everyone and the delver who sees someone doing this and decides (s)he likes the idea and follows suit. We then have a major tragedy-of-the-commons situation going on, and this is not at all fair to the LarryMurk camp who would really like the tempest about credit for #1s to go away.

When one starts going for high scores on CaravelNet, one becomes at least a nominal part of the CN community, and one of the consequences of that is that one's award winning solutions become available for others to admire. CaravelNet might have been designed differently, but it isn't, and I personally think that this community is one of the value-adds of the service, so I would be very disheartened at a change that reduces the community effect.

The delvers who don't want their solutions used against them in trivial ways have a legitimate desire and some reasonably non-intrusive measures to foster that style of competition may be called for. But anything that would erode the sense of community in the service, IMHO, is a clear-cut net negative, and ought to be right-out.

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03-01-2007 at 11:12 AM
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hyphz
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
michthro wrote:
I like how everyone's making so much of the fact that I admit to sniping snipers. I did very little sniping. I'm talking about sometimes losing my cool and retaliating when I was sure I had just been sniped by someone I already had down as a sniper. Oh, btw: Some people have argued that I could only tell if someone's sniping by sniping myself. Actually, it's easy to watch demos without sniping. It's so easy that I'm surprised at the argument. You simply don't improve your score after watching. I watched a lot of demos after beating them, without further improving my scores. I've also watched a lot of demos after giving up, without then tieing the score.

Ouch! I'm very new here, and that would mean that I couldn't watch people's demos just to learn from them and then try the room again myself. And I'm not talking about scoring higher here, I'm talking about not getting killed on the puzzle a couple of rooms away where that technique becomes essential. :) I'm not quite at the stage of being able to memorize every one of someone's moves yet.

On the other hand I suppose that as a newbie I don't care that much about scoring highly, so maybe you could make it so that once you've viewed a demo for a room you can't submit scores for it any more, or that they go into an alternate score table?
03-01-2007 at 02:36 PM
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halyavin
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
BTW, many tricks can be learned from DROD-solver. The only problem that DROD-solver sometimes teach tricks that are distined not for human minds. This is forbidden technics of the Eight :D .
PS I hope architects are not going to use DROD-solver. I don't want to solve holds that as hard comparted to Beethro's Teacher as Beethro Teacher hard compared to middle levels of Journey to Rooted Hold.
03-01-2007 at 03:01 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+2)  
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback on the CaravelNet demo scoring issue and various proposals for improving the system. I'd like to announce that it'll be taken care of, and we'd appreciate the discussion to stop. Maybe not because there's nothing more to say, but because we've got the situation in-hand and this is just a request from us to you. Thanks again.
03-01-2007 at 03:13 PM
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Schik
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I just wanted to mention that the one-week delay is now gone - scoring should be just like it used to be. Mike will announce the rest of his changes later.

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03-01-2007 at 08:11 PM
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michthro
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Sorry, but I feel there is one thing I should clarify, since it's important to some people: I never said Syntax and fratropea aren't good players. From the reaction here and in some PMs some people think otherwise. They're good players who save themselves too much time by watching demos. Sure, mostly they don't need to watch any demos. Too often, when they can't match top scores fast enough for their liking, they watch the demo, then tie or beat it. That's my opinion. (Based on facts - I'm the last one to jump to conclusions about similarities between a handful of demos.) So I said I'd block them if I could. That's all.

To those who jumped to the defence of their abilities: They're good. Fine. Stop caring about who is how good. I didn't even consider that anyone would take what I said as an insult to their abilities, because I'm not the one who's obsessed with how good anyone is, and how doing well in DROD makes anyone brilliant.

So everyone thinks the opposite: I'm trying to prove something and all that. Well, you're wrong about me, but no amount of trying will ever make you see that. If you're going to assume that in the first place, there's no pont in trying to explain myself. I don't have to explain myself anyway. I enjoy optimising. If you jump to conclusions, I can't help it.

It doesn't make sense that players can improve their scores after watching demos. All I wanted was for that to change, by which everyone - not only me - would have gained. The system is also heavily biased in favour of players like me who have been playing for a long time. Something along the lines of Banjooie's suggestion would be an excellent idea. I wonder how many of these public-spirited "optimisers" would be prepared to lose the advantage they have over newcomers.
03-02-2007 at 01:38 PM
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Maurog
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
Sorry, but the point was that you suggested a change, then immediately showed why that change is destructive to the spirit of CaravelNet. Saying "give me the power to restrict people's access to my demos, and the first thing I'll do is blocking several people I suspect and some other people that have a point of view I don't agree with" doesn't make you look good, and doesn't make the suggested change look good.

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03-02-2007 at 02:35 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+1)  
Lets please honor Mike's request for the discussion to stop.

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03-02-2007 at 02:35 PM
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