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DanielFishman
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Maurog in General with a mod point complaint
04-15-2010 at 12:14 AM
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zex20913
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Noma--refute that guess!

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04-15-2010 at 03:09 PM
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noma
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Mr. Fishman (aka Zombie Snacko) has been informed.
04-16-2010 at 10:22 PM
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zex20913
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And now it is the time for Jatopian to guess. 24!

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04-16-2010 at 11:26 PM
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Jatopian
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Snacko in Forum Games with a snarky comment.

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04-17-2010 at 02:28 AM
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zex20913
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This guess is not legitimate according to the rules. The location must have been "Anything". 24 is still going. And the non-legit guess will not count as the location marker.

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04-17-2010 at 04:53 AM
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Jatopian
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Hey, I could've just not posted that H&S post. If you want to stifle my posting, in direct contraindication of the game's intent, be my guest. You don't have to change the rule to "between this guess and the previous", but then, I can just quit. :|

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 04-17-2010 04:59 AM]
04-17-2010 at 04:58 AM
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noma
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I thought that one's guess could count as a legit "most recent" post for a Forum Games guess (and of course, would be "overlooked" when guessing a different board.) As far as I can tell, most (if not all) of us have taken advantage of this loophole already.
04-17-2010 at 05:35 AM
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zex20913
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According to the "Recent Posts" for Jatopian, after he posted in Forum Games, he posted in Hints and Solutions (totally legitimate to still be in Forum Games) and he also posted in the "Nectarine?" thread in the Anything board. The location he was in is thus the "Anything" board.

I didn't want the non-legit guess to count as a legit post for another guess at Forum Games.

I hope that this clarifies my perspective. I do not intend to offend.

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04-17-2010 at 12:45 PM
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noma
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Yes, but his post in Forum Games was also his guess. In other words, he had made his guess about a valid board he had posted in before posting in another board. Does that mean that if I post in, say, General, and submit my guess claiming that the deed took place in General, that I cannot post on another valid location board until after my guess is "over?" Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but this doesn't seem to make sense to me.
04-17-2010 at 01:24 PM
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jbluestein
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zex's interpretation appears to be that the post you make as your actual guess can't count as a post itself. This is consistent, but I think it would be OK to interpret it the other way as well.

The thing that makes this whole debate kind of silly, though, is that Jatopian could just re-post his guess right now and it would count.

Josh

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04-17-2010 at 02:51 PM
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Jatopian
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zex apparently missed http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=30337&page=9#302398 - since my last undisputed guess, I posted in Electronic Games, General x2, Forum Games, H&S, and Anything, in that order.

So I was in Forum Games between then and now.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 04-17-2010 04:57 PM]
04-17-2010 at 04:53 PM
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zex20913
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According to the rules in the first post...
Guessing: On your turn, you guess a player, a method of killing, and a board where it occurred. In the spirit of Clue, you can only guess a board where you have posted your most recent legitimate post. Nothing like "post" or "ditto" or "qft" will suffice--give an opinion, fact, or contribution to the conversation there. This will be checked for all guesses.

Emphasis added.

Even though Jatopian had posted in Forum Games since his previous legit guess, he had most recently posted in Anything. Thus, his location was Anything.

Noma--jbluestein's interpretation of the rules is also my intended one--a guess can not count as legitimacy for itself. The guess thus must be for the location of the suspected board where you made your last post. Non-suspected boards are free to post in without altering your location. Posts made after guessing do not affect the guess. "Most recent" refers to at the time of posting the guess.

jbluestein--I argue that the "other way" (that is, interpreting the guess to be a legitimizing post in Forum Games) would not be consistent, as then it would be impossible to make a guess about other boards in this thread.

Jatopian--I refer again to "Most recent" in the rules. I'm sorry that this is causing frustration.

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04-17-2010 at 07:49 PM
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jbluestein
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Jatopian wrote:
zex apparently missed http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=30337&page=9#302398 - since my last undisputed guess, I posted in Electronic Games, General x2, Forum Games, H&S, and Anything, in that order.

So I was in Forum Games between then and now.

But that's not the rule. The rule is that your post immediately before your guess (excluding posts to non-suspect boards) must be in the board that you are guessing about.

So posts after your guess are irrelevant.

Josh

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04-17-2010 at 08:00 PM
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Jatopian
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Then find someone else to take my place, post-discourager. I'm not going to stop and double-guess whether I ought to post just for your silly game.

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04-17-2010 at 10:38 PM
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zex20913
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Wish granted. Guess skipped. Stigant is up. At this point in the game, if somebody guesses something that Jatopian would refute, it will be made public information.

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04-17-2010 at 10:54 PM
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stigant
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Sorry, I've been quite busy this weekend and haven't had time to chime in, but I'm going to add my two greckels:

I argue that the "other way" (that is, interpreting the guess to be a legitimizing post in Forum Games) would not be consistent, as then it would be impossible to make a guess about other boards in this thread.
Sure, but is your intent for this rule to be a "gotcha" (because we've been pretty lenient when someone messes up here) or to encourage people to post on the forum? Noma, Jbluestein, Jatopian, and I'll add my name to the list, seem to think it's perfectly reasonable to allow an exception for posts on THIS forum. That constitutes a majority of the PLAYERS of the game. (While I certainly appreciate you taking the time to referee the game, do you think that your role should be to facilitate the fun - ie the spirit of the game - or to be a rule nazi and enforce every stupid detail no matter how unimportant?)

Then find someone else to take my place, post-discourager.
Wow, really? All you have to do is re-post your guess after that post.

Jeez, you guys are a couple of babies. Seriously, the two of you have completely soured this game. Over something that couldn't possibly affect the outcome of the game. Unless it comes to someone quitting. It's supposed to be fun. Relax, make up, and finish the game.

Wish granted. Guess skipped.
Massive eye roll. You're not even going to try to get another player?

At this point in the game, if somebody guesses something that Jatopian would refute, it will be made public information.
That's not fair to the person whose guess was refuted. (Or rather, it IS fair in the sense that it could happen to anybody and would be enforced the same way for everybody, but it's got the potential to drastically change the dynamics of the game). See, THIS rule is worth discussing.



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04-18-2010 at 02:21 PM
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Penwielder
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I'm right here. My timing has just been bad lately. A lot has happened in this thread in the last 24 hours.

I'll try to make this nice and simple:

1. (This point is made irrelevant by those that follow.) Your post must indeed be before your guess, and posting the guess again would solve this. After that, you can post on Mars for all I care--the point is, you were there.

2. We have counted the guess itself as presence in Forum Games before. Or at least I have, and either I have not been told otherwise, or I don't remember being told otherwise.

3. We never before enforced the 'immediately' part of that rule before, as far as I can see. I'm fine with Jatopian's interpretation, especially seeing as it fits far better with the intent of the game.

4. zex20913 had told me that we would not be so forgiving in the future after someone else made a mistake concerning presence, so if he didn't see point 2 above, he did exactly what he should have done in pouncing on it.

5. Jatopian didn't quite see point 4 (particularly how it relates to point 2), which explains his frustration.

6. zex20913 didn't see that Jatopian didn't realize what zex20913 didn't see, hence his most recent post. (I'd have been frustrated too.)

Awaiting verdict.

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04-18-2010 at 04:18 PM
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zex20913
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I don't like fanning flames. I too find the argument silly.

I feel like defending my position, and will do so via PMs if necessary. Let's attempt to finish this now slightly exploded game.

Edit: I do agree with Stigant about the info not being made public. KotE shall essentially play the role of Jatopian, and pass guesses, and refute via PM.

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 04-18-2010 05:31 PM]
04-18-2010 at 05:26 PM
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Penwielder
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...and he has made things clearer than ever to me.

Part of it was inconsistency on my part because I didn't ask before going ahead and counting guesses as their own presence. This will no longer be accepted. (For clarity, I'll mention: zex20913 told me that he did once count a previous guess as presence, which you may not have realized--that's different because it's not the same post as the current guess.)

The other part of it, as he has explained to me, was in the interpretation of 'most recent.' Jatopian has a point. I suggest changing the rule to 'since his/her last guess' or 'within the past 48 hours' or something of that sort (reasoning, if you must, that the given inspector may not have found locations visited after that one to be suspect). Opinions?

Oh, and if Jatopian ever wants to come back, I'm not about to stop him--leaving was just an act of frustration on his part.

Stigant is up.

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-19-2010 01:23 AM]
04-19-2010 at 01:23 AM
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stigant
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From Zex's PM to me:
I hadn't really looked at it that way. My view of the position of referee is as rule nazi. I honestly didn't consider the fun aspect.

I've been trying to decide whether to continue. This comment has tipped the balance. I will not continue this game. Nor will I play another game with anybody who has this attitude.

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04-19-2010 at 04:17 AM
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zex20913
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Well. This seems to be a fine mess I've gotten myself into.

I do stand by that PM comment. Referees are supposed to be "rule nazis" (stigant's phrase). That is their job. It becomes more difficult when they make the rules as well, though, which seems to be the situation here. A check/balance is lost.

I'm very confused as to why two players have exploded out of the game now. Also somewhat amused that I now have a guess of my own of stigant in Forum Games with a mean private message.

If anyone wants to continue this now broken game, please do so. It seems that stigant will not be guessing, so it would be Maurog's turn.

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04-19-2010 at 05:00 AM
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Jatopian
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Surely he just chose his words poorly... :\ surely?

Edit: Or not.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 04-19-2010 05:21 AM]
04-19-2010 at 05:20 AM
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Maurog
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Umm, Maurog in Anything with a mod point complaint?

Rule Nazi is not a problem as long as everyone are clear what the rules are. Hosting a game while you don't even consider the fun aspect is, though.

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04-19-2010 at 10:55 AM
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Penwielder
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Maurog said everything I would want to at this point. I'm guessing there's not much I can do now, besides noting that we now know how to run this far better if it is ever suggested again. But we will finish this time, as smoothly as we can. I'll be refuting for those two, unless they change their minds.

Right now, however, Snacko shall refute.

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-19-2010 08:49 PM]
04-19-2010 at 08:47 PM
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jbluestein
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This is probably going to be a mistake, but here goes anyway:

People need to just lighten up a bit.

The rules to this game are neither particularly demanding nor particularly hard to figure out. I don't really get what the issue is with either Jatopian's or stigant's abrupt departure. stigant at least bothered to try to understand the rules but apparently was offended by zex's attitude...or perhaps by his use of the word 'nazi'...not really sure.

Really, though, how hard is this? Post on a board, then post a guess. What exactly is the problem? It's not exactly asking people to post their guesses in iambic pentameter. It's one requirement, then a guess.

Sheesh.

I'm still in, but I don't really understand the problem.

Josh

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04-19-2010 at 10:27 PM
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zex20913
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Snacko is no longer playing--DanielFishman is in the role of Snacko now, and shall refute. (Clarity)

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04-20-2010 at 12:48 PM
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DanielFishman
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zex20913 wrote:
Snacko is no longer playing--DanielFishman is in the role of Snacko now, and shall refute. (Clarity)
And done.
04-20-2010 at 01:11 PM
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jbluestein
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I guess that makes it my turn.

So I will guess that Maurog stunk up the Holds board by whining about getting downmodded for thread necromancy (Mod Point Complaint).

Josh

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04-20-2010 at 03:55 PM
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Penwielder
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Refuted in the stead of Jatopian.

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04-20-2010 at 09:28 PM
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