west.logan
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So much for the "Why". Now what can be done about it?

I first encountered DROD on Linspire (a Windows-like Linux distro from a while back) and got hooked. Even today, when I install Ubuntu on a computer and then look for extra programs, I'll first go to the games section.

Perhaps it has been discussed before but if you can get Canonical to officially support and maintain DROD in their software repository, I think this could be a significant boost to getting word out. People who would take the time to try out Ubuntu are just the sort of demographic who would be interested in playing DROD.

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mtuan
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My thoughts

1. DROD PR is almost nothing, except some trailers from Youtube.
Look at these Youtube playing is also boring to beginners. We DRODers certainly do not upload these videos, but upload demos here instead.

2. DROD graphics is very primitive and not contrast or lively enough to attract gamers.
Personally I think that DROD AE is much better looking than JtRH or TCB.

3. DROD is too hard.
Most of my friends stop playing DROD after stuck at KDD level 3 or 4. They don't know about all DROD tutorials, Advanced concepts and other holds for beginners. All they know is KDD, so they stop playing.
Be honest, DROD is a very hardcore puzzle game, which is only suitable for small community which is not afraid of complex spatial left-brained exercises.

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[Last edited by mtuan at 06-08-2011 09:52 AM]

da rogu3
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@mtuan

1 - agreed, lots of indies don't get much publicity, and DROD especially is very hard to explain, purely through a video.

2 - AE (and Webfoot) have more retro styled graphics. The sprites in current games look detailed enough, I don't see how they could be improved without becoming over-detailed.

3 - true, the first three levels of KDD are a very good introduction, but level 4 ramps up the difficulty too much. And TCB is extremely hardcore, most AE holds are about utilising fighting techniques to kill different combinations of monsters, now all of these techniques are taken for granted, with tricky lynchpin puzzles enforced on top of them.

Edit: also, looking at older posts, it seems that the community used to be much more active. Everything seems to have slowed down - according to the holds page, even the number of holds each year have steadily been decreasing.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 06-08-2011 10:03 AM]

mtuan
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@da rogu3

2. I mean the graphics in JtRH and TCB are not attractive although more detailed.
For example, I prefer the trapdoor distinctly red like AE but not the simply brown in TCB.
If I could use the old AE styles as options while playing JtRH and TCB, it would be great.

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[Last edited by mtuan at 06-08-2011 10:44 AM]

west.logan
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da rogu3 wrote:

3 - true, the first three levels of KDD are a very good introduction, but level 4 ramps up the difficulty too much. And TCB is extremely hardcore, most AE holds are about utilising fighting techniques to kill different combinations of monsters, now all of these techniques are taken for granted, with tricky lynchpin puzzles enforced on top of them.

Ah thanks! Now I don't feel so much like a wimp. I got through a bit of TCB and then felt like I was struggling with each room. I decided to go back and play through JtRH first and see if that helped. I never had any problems with KDD (though if I remember right, I lost my data around the 14th level): some were hard but not agonizingly so. I'll come back to TCB when I've gained more experience

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Jatopian
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We really need to buckle down and get a proper tutorial made for DROD 4. A free one.

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skell
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I remember an idea being popped long time ago, to include some of the user made holds in the game right from the start.

I'd take it even one step further - include some of the holds making it obvious at who are they aimed, ie:

- Advanced Tutorial "Advanced Concepts"
- Basic Tutorial "Johny Cage Tutorial"
- Novice Hold "Walking on the Sunshine"
- Intermediate Hold "Island of Linchpins"
- Advanced Hold "Dark Sadness"
- Expert Hold "Dungeon of Broken Orbs"

(Try to guess which are random names ) What I mean is that it would be nice for new player to be presented not only with the Hold's name but also with a short note whether he should even bother with trying it, without having to go through the descriptions. Adding 3 or 4 easy holds and a longer tutorial hold (Selected by default) would be nice. Of course, the tutorial would most likely have to be made specially for the game.

Also I wonder, why not create a tutorial hold like that, and include it in all future updates of TCB?

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Someone Else
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da rogu3 wrote:
Edit: also, looking at older posts, it seems that the community used to be much more active. Everything seems to have slowed down - according to the holds page, even the number of holds each year have steadily been decreasing.

Yes, this is quite true. But I think that it'll hold on, and maybe rebuild back to its former glory, given time. If we're lucky, the Next Big Project will start us on the road to do just that.

da rogu3
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Right, so we have monthly contests, giving people 12 chances to win something a year, a dedicated review team for holds, a passionate dev team who listen to feedback from feature requests and bugs, and a working high score / leaderboard service. These are many things which many indie games don't have, and yet this community is extremely small. Doesn't make much sense to me

Makes me wish I had entered the drod scene a few years earlier, seems so much more exciting then.

Banjooie
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OK, watch.

Braid - A platformer with time-travel mechanics. It's like, ten bucks.

World of Goo - A physics based building game. Dude, just buy it. It's like ten bucks, when it isn't /five/.

Minecraft - A 3-Dimensional sandbox building game. Also, 'SSSSSSSSSSSSSSS' (note memetic quality) Dude, okay, it's like twenty bucks now and then you get updates for life.

Terraria - It's kinda like Minecraft but it's more...Super Metroid, I guess? It's frigging ten dollars, buy it.


DROD - It's, uhh...kinda like if you were doing Zelda puzzles, all the time, but it was turnbased. OH. How /much/ is it? ...Uh...well, like, there's three official level sets, they're twenty bucks each. Make sure to get..

Oh. Oh, you bought KDD 2.0. Well, that's a good one, too, but it doesn't have /all/ the DROD elements.

Why don't they have all three games in a bundle? I..uh. I'm not actually strictly sure, I guess.

-----

And /that's/ why DROD has a smaller fan community.

da rogu3
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Firstly, it's not fair to compare with games like Braid, World of Goo, and Minecraft. They are actually aimed at the masses, whereas DROD is much more niche. I would compare it with the likes of Professor Fizzwizzle or Eets.

Secondly, is price really the issue, when the demo alone offers so much?

Personally I think publicity is a much more striking factor. Mabye if Caravel could get noticed by Rock Paper Shotgun (or some other gaming blog with a large following), that's where I heard about Frozen Synapse and SpaceChem, for example.

Jatopian
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Banjooie wrote:
DROD - It's, uhh...kinda like if you were doing Zelda puzzles, all the time, but it was turnbased. OH. How /much/ is it? ...Uh...well, like, there's three official level sets, they're twenty bucks each. Make sure to get..

Oh. Oh, you bought KDD 2.0. Well, that's a good one, too, but it doesn't have /all/ the DROD elements.

Why don't they have all three games in a bundle? I..uh. I'm not actually strictly sure, I guess.

-----

And /that's/ why DROD has a smaller fan community.

I don't think we really need or want a bundle deal. We just need to be really clear that there's backward compatibility, so you should get the latest game and whatever official level set you want. Probably we should work this so you can get the full version's graphics and music even if the official hold you bought isnt the TCB hold, and also some way to buy JtRH's music maybe?

We should also emphasize that the entire engine is free, our user content is rated for quality and free, so it's like shareware really. (Do people know what shareware is anymore? This one might need more spin. Also user content has a bad rap.)

If you do all that you might be able to keep the price at $20. Maybe. Personally with how things are trickling anyway I might lower the price by five to ten dollars and hope to make it up by volume. If that doesn't work, you can always set TSS back at $20.

Anyway, we apparently have six whole months at least to think about it even though I feel like the points Banjooie is raising could well need to be addressed before the next game is finished.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 06-10-2011 11:16 PM : clarity &c.]

Banjooie
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Yes, the price point is the issue, because explaining to people the value of the demo is /incredibly hard/.

Edit: and, I'm not going to lie, when was the last time outside the DROD forum you heard ANYONE talk about Fizzwizzle or Eets?

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 06-10-2011 09:00 PM]

Jatopian
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Of course, to experiment with setting it at ten dollars we'd have to have it on Steam before TSS is out. But frankly that's the order this should go in anyway.

____________________________
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Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Syntax
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da rogu3 wrote:
Right, so we have monthly contests, giving people 12 chances to win something a year, a dedicated review team for holds, a passionate dev team who listen to feedback from feature requests and bugs, and a working high score / leaderboard service. These are many things which many indie games don't have, and yet this community is extremely small. Doesn't make much sense to me

Makes me wish I had entered the drod scene a few years earlier, seems so much more exciting then.

Just like to say that I agree with your sentiments. I would disagree with the community being small though - it may seem so but if you look at join dates from posters, there's plenty of 5 years+. The main issue is attracting new players.

It's also been over a year since TCB so that limits what there is to talk about. The JtRH release was really pushing the boundaries and the hype/vision gave us plenty to post about at the time.

I'd classify this forum as "quiet" but there's plenty of people watching so it's good to have people like you renewing conversation

[EDIT]

As for price point, I'd charge 888 dollars. Everyone would bittorrent it *just to see* why it's so expensive. And there's our next gen of players

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[Last edited by Syntax at 06-11-2011 09:43 AM]

da rogu3
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True, 'small' was a badly chosen word on my part, 'quiet' is much more accurate. Looking at old articles from the site page, there used to be so much more enthusiasm and passion for the game, which no one seems to show anymore. People seem reluctant to have conversations and (friendly) debates. (but correct me if I'm wrong, it's just my observations)

As for the whole steam thing, as long as the game doesn't require it, then I'm not bothered whether it gets added. (I will always buy the non-steam version)

About setting the price low however, if Caravel were to host a 90% off steam daily deal, for example, certainly more people would buy the game, but how many would actually stay? I've bought a few games for 90p (Trine, Blueberry Garden, Overlord), which I haven't played for more than half an hour.

As for the next generation of players you refer to, it makes me think of a younger crowd - who would probably be more attracted to KDD style gameplay, rather than the slower more puzzly TCB type puzzles. Younger kids and teenagers would probably have the most time to invest in the game, without work / exams / other stuff, but the interest wouldn't always be as strong. I remember playing the original Webfoot DROD a long time ago on a shareware collection CD, when I was much younger. Rooms like King Dugan's Dungeon : First Level : 6 North, 2 West and King Dugan's Dungeon : Second Level : 1 South had me stuck for days, and I was able to appreciate the genious behind rooms like King Dugan's Dungeon : Third Level : 1 South, 1 West. But if I was presented with the type of puzzles around now, I would have instantly disliked it. (whereas playing the game now, I actually dislike the official levels, but love playing Beethro's Teacher, Don't Kill The Messenger, and other logical holds)

Eh, I might have derailed from the original point with all that, but that's just my thoughts

Syntax
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I don't know the actual stats but have a feeling the main demographic is actually "older people" - 24+. Beyond that, it's hard to tell what keeps certain people hooked compared to others getting bored.

By next gen of players, I meant "new players" through exposure (of all demographics). Again, which players "stick" doesn't seem to be definable, so I figured the more visibility, the better.

As for the steam thing, I was only half joking about the $888 price tag. I'm not sure, in general, how DROD would fit into Steam but that's probably just a bias of mine (I personally *love* the fact this is a niche game). Still - it's probably a good move for reasons I stated above

[EDIT]

Also, trying to define why I stayed so faithful to DROD is interestingly enough impossible. I speak for VaC also but it just seemed *the right game* - it's crazy that I can't define that feeling further (after 7 years of playing).

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[Last edited by Syntax at 06-11-2011 11:10 AM]

mtuan
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In retrospect, I discover a downward spiral.

By introducing the new elements and monsters, DROD become more complex, harder and more difficult for newbies.

I suppose the next DROD is no exception. For an architect, it's easier to make difficult holds.

I have to fight 10-15 types of monsters in AE. Now in TCB I have 20-30 types of monsters to fight against.

So we are in a vicious cycle. Through each new DROD version, the already small DROD community become smaller.

Imagine every few years FIDE would introduce a new chess piece to the chessboard and/or enlarge it.

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[Last edited by mtuan at 06-11-2011 02:53 PM]

Rat Man
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Why don't we just take out some of the things from the last game when we add new stuff like everyone else does?

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Syntax
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Rat Man wrote:
Why don't we just take out some of the things from the last game when we add new stuff like everyone else does?

Take stuff out of adding things?

Rat Man
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No, I mean keep thinking up new monsters but limit the amount of monsters and elements used in the game so it doesn't get too convoluted.

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da rogu3
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I actually want more elements to be added to each iteration of DROD, as long as they behave in an intuitive and predictable manner (a.k.a no stalwarts, builders/citizens, briars; but wraithwings and snakes are fine)

Syntax
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da rogu3 wrote:
I actually want more elements to be added to each iteration of DROD, as long as they behave in an intuitive and predictable manner (a.k.a no stalwarts, builders/citizens, briars; but wraithwings and snakes are fine)

Agreed - besides, removing elements would break existing holds so doubt that would happen. I'm happy with all elements - they all have their place in my opinion.

NightSight
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I think the larger number of elements in each successive version does worsen the already steep learning curve. To some extent, a new player might feel like they have to play AE/KDD 2.0 and/or JtRH before being able to play TCB. I can see the age of AE being off-putting for some, particularly younger players. I don't think many younger gamers would have played Oblivion if they had to have experience playing the first three Elder Scrolls games in order to not get slaughtered at the start.

I think the challenge for getting new DROD players isn't just getting the word out about the existence of the game, it's about getting word to the right people. It's definitely a niche game, but I couldn't identify exactly what that niche is. It does seem to skew a little older. There seem to be a surprising number of grad students. In general, though, I couldn't really say what the target demographic is.

As far as the demo, I wouldn't imagine that it draws that many people in. The fact that you can access the user-made holds does make the demo quite expansive, but I don't think a new player would understand how good many of those holds are. I think it's natural to assume that the official holds are the best and the user-made content is inferior.

Perhaps a direction to take would be to make a different version of the demo that uses an entirely original hold. One that is relatively brief, with easy puzzles for a new player to solve. If there was a short, but fun level to play in the demo, it would be more natural for a new player to want to try the full version. Successful demos get across the fun of a game quickly. I think in DROD's case, the demo needs to somehow demonstrate how rewarding it is to conquer a room without being difficult enough to make it seem like the full version will be impossible to do, which is a challenge in its own right.

Syntax
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The issue is (and has always been) that creating a good "tutorial hold" is a lot harder than expected.

Jatopian
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I think it's funny that DROD has difficulty making concessions and selling itself to new acquaintances and is terrible at getting in on the hip new* thing everyone is doing. In other words DROD is as bad at gaining popularity as its average nerdy player. Unfortunately the comparison breaks down in that a human being merely needs to be inoffensive to get by, not actually attract people.

Syntax wrote:
I'm not sure, in general, how DROD would fit into Steam but that's probably just a bias of mine (I personally *love* the fact this is a niche game).

You selfish goshdarn hipster. *shakes fist*

* Actually Steam is over 7 years old now, which only makes it worse.

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TripleM
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Since there was some discussion about prices, I might as well bring up the point of paying for Caravelnet. While this may not quite apply in drawing people to DROD, once new people join and have just gotten into the game, they discover that their month's trial is up. Suddenly you have to pay more than half the cost of the game in the first place every year to see room images on hints + solutions, have high scores, be able to see other people's demos after completing, download holds in game, etc.

I assume that the price is probably necessary to cover server fees, but it's feels a bit offputting to me - if I want to buy a $10 or $20 game like this I want that to be it; not to have to pay more continuously.

NiroZ
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Thinking about Banj mentioning the price point/lack of bundling.

I think its worth noting that in 2005, 20 bucks for an indie title was pretty much the norm. Furthermore, indie games outside of the mindlessly casual games and clones were rarer, or at least a lot less publicised. Thanks to the Xbox and PS3 marketplaces and proliferation and expansion of flash sites, not only are indie games much more common, but its much easier to quickly find a game to start playing.

enzi666
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I still think a lot about DROD and there are some new things I came up with.

Don't introduce your friends to KDD. Show them JtRH! The pacing is horrible in KDD for the impatient players. Don't like a particular new puzzle element? Well, you are screwed because the whole level is like this.

JtRH on the other hand did it right. It brought a story in DROD and had cool characters and dialogues.

What I'd like to see would be a redesigned tutorial. Show players the many different ways how you actually play DROD. Even a step-by-step guide if needed.

I thought about something like this:
Have rooms that are split in half. On the left is a guard that clears out the room and he basically just shows you how to solve this room. Start slow and don't stop when the basics are explained! Many have problems with enemy manipulation so put some rooms in where you have to time roach queen spawns, creative use of snakes, etc... Basically all the good stuff that you see in the later levels. The creativity of Caravel games and the community is mind blowing so why not show it in the early stages?

Maybe that would help. I'm not sure. Sometimes I wish I could transfer my knowledge to someone so he realizes how cool DROD is. I mean, ever tried to explain someone that you have to manipulate goblins with your sword so they block the path of a snake? When you know nothing about the context it just doesn't sound exciting.

____________________________
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DROD AE: Finished - KDD2: Mastered
JTRH: Mastered
TCB: Mastered - RPG: Finished
GatEB: Mastered - TSS: Mastered