Blondbeard
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It makes me a bit sad to see how uneven the votes are, but on the other hand: Both games are highly "specialised". They appeal to a small number of people, and were clasical DROD has been around for quite a while DROD RPG is quite newborn. I really hope that more people like Nuntar will find their way to it. I'm certain they are out there. They just need to find it.

Znirk
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I voted for the "classics", but that's because I have played them whereas my experience with the RPG is limited to the demo. This may change now that I see the beginnings of activity on the RPG holds board.

Neather2
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I preferer the classic DROD but i'm seeing RPG a lot cool, too.

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Kwerulous
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I too voted for classic DROD. The RPG just didn't seem to draw me in enough to get away from the classic game. Although I didn't really give it much of a chance, I suppose I just prefer the puzzle style of classic as opposed to the 'trial and error' style of RPG.

lopsidation
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Classic DROD, definitely. While the "obscure element interactions" criticism is true of some holds, the vast majority of good holds rely on simple relationships between game elements, brought together to make a solid puzzle.

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[Last edited by lopsidation at 04-10-2009 03:45 PM]

Sillyman
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I voted that I like both equally... what I would really like though, is RPG-level scripting in the main DROD series. Then I could do so much more... like, say, Chip's Challenge (I got fairly far, but couldn't do it for two main reasons: RPG moving monsters can't kill by stepping, and the rooms were far too small.

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Jatopian
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lopsidation wrote:
Classic DROD, definitely. While the "obscure element interactions" criticism is true of some holds, the vast majority of good holds rely on simple relationships between game elements, brought together to make a solid puzzle.

This. Furthermore, while DROD puzzles can avoid the "obscure element interactions" if made by halfway decent architects, even the official DROD RPG hold suffers from flaws inherent to its gameplay.

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ErikH2000
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It bugs me when I hear people dismiss DROD RPG as "trial and error". The big difference is that you do not have all the information in advance, so yes, there is guessing. But not all guesses are equally as good. What is needed is to think about the system as a whole, all the elements that might be in it, what the designer is likely to throw at you (you get an idea on this as you play), and then form good guesses based on these things. You are bound to make some wrong guesses and be required to redo sections of the game, but it's not so bad. And there is some logical deduction parts where you can make risk-free decisions, so it is a nice mixture of educated guesswork and pure logic. For me at least.

-Erik

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Syntax
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ErikH2000 wrote:
It bugs me when I hear people dismiss DROD RPG as "trial and error". The big difference is that you do not have all the information in advance, so yes, there is guessing.

I believe that the reason the terms "big difference" and "trial and error" are used is because that is indeed the big difference.

I haven't seen any evidence of "I hate RPG because it's not like DROD" and it's interesting to see how old-school DROD fans want to make clear that point - it feels awkward sometimes siding with DROD over RPG but there's no doubt that both are hugely respected.

RPG is up against an instilled classic and I don't think the skewing of votes should be seen as a lack of support.

Kwakstur
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My honest opinion: RPG is powerful level-editor and puzzle game engine disguised as a shameless clone of Tower of the Sorcerer.

That's the game we should be comparing it to.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-17-2009 10:45 PM : TotS, not ST]

zex20913
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Well, if we're comparing it to ToTS, RPG wins hands down. I agree with much of the consent here that RPG is in its first installment, and thus not (seemingly) as polished as DROD, in its third. Comparing it to Webfoot DROD, I think RPG wins too, because of the scripting capabilities.

But if I was forced to choose one, I'd still have to go with the classic.

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techant
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At first I was going to choose both, but then I realized that I have not been motivated to finish RPG (I have the full version and have gotten almost through it). I just could not give up finishing all the DROD versions including Webfoot. This was how I found the forum because I needed help (yes I admit it) to finish Webfoot. So, I voted DROD over RPG.

That said I have found through the contests that I enjoy building holds in RPG more than in traditional DROD, but that is another survey, isn't it?

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Nuntar
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ErikH2000 wrote:
It bugs me when I hear people dismiss DROD RPG as "trial and error". The big difference is that you do not have all the information in advance, so yes, there is guessing. But not all guesses are equally as good. What is needed is to think about the system as a whole, all the elements that might be in it, what the designer is likely to throw at you (you get an idea on this as you play), and then form good guesses based on these things. You are bound to make some wrong guesses and be required to redo sections of the game, but it's not so bad. And there is some logical deduction parts where you can make risk-free decisions, so it is a nice mixture of educated guesswork and pure logic. For me at least.

I too would like to have continued further into the game. Maybe someone can enlighten us?

I did mean to reply to that question earlier, but I didn't manage to get round to it. However, Erik's post has made me decide to give it a go, because I feel it's a real shame if some people are not getting the most out of this wonderful game.

So, for the most part, navigating an RPG hold is all about building your stats up so you can fight stronger monsters. But not willy-nilly, and not by guesswork. The thing is to bring up the damage calculator (default key: numpad plus) and work out how much ATK you need to reduce the damage. Let's say, for instance, that you want a DEF gem that's behind a monster. If the necessary ATK to reduce its damage is only a small way above what you already have, then it's worth leaving it and getting more ATK, even if you have to fight some strong monsters to get it. If you would need a lot more ATK, though, then it's probably worth killing this monster now so the DEF will help reduce the damage as you fight other monsters to gain ATK. The thing is that because you know the hold is completable, most of the time making common-sense decisions like this will get you through, and then you can go back and optimise afterwards. It's true that sometimes you don't know what you can gain by killing a certain monster (because it allows you to reach a room you haven't seen yet), but that's why you save before any major decisions so that you can play on without worrying about the consequences of failure, and then if necessary go back to your save and play on from there with knowledge of what lies ahead. If you think this somehow spoils the gameplay... well, you use savepoints in the other DROD, don't you?

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Sillyman
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The things hiding information in RPG are the same things that hide information in DROD... it's just a bit more prominent. Think about that one level in KDD that I don't know which one because I haven't experienced it.

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Banjooie
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So, anyway, Tetris Attack or Dr. Mario, which is the better puzzle game?

Sillyman
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Definitely Tetris Attack. Sorry, your analogy fails this time.

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Banjooie
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The underlying concept, that they're two completely different styles of game, is still sound.

13th Slayer
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Banjooie wrote:
The underlying concept, that they're two completely different styles of game, is still sound.

OOOH MAN. You're damn right. They are... different. Not to be compared. But we don't compare. You ask which we like more? We answer. Done.

Rabscuttle
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What is the analogy in reply to? I don't think anyone is claiming that the two games don't have different gameplay, so it does seem kind of irrelevant.

In fact, I'd expect most of the preferences expressed in the thread to be mostly dependant on the gameplay, given that they are set in the same world and story, have similar graphics and controls etc.

anyway, I think Warcraft 3 vs World of Warcraft is a better analogy.

(Warcraft 3 vs World of Warcraft) vs (Tetris Attack vs Dr. Mario), which is the better analogous situation?

--

re hiding: DROD used to be worse before clickable orbs, see-through tar tokens (and mods) and move order info. It used to be that solving a room could involve exploratory work to find out what and where everything was.

DROD RPG does have maps, but it does require the architect to give them to the player.

TripleM
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My opinion on the 'trial and error' issue:

I've played through the first half of DROD: RPG. I started off grabbing all the att/def/keys I could find, and quickly realised that it was best to leave some for when I could grab them later. I enjoyed restarting levels to find a better path through them, figuring out massive improvements.

I then reach the second half. I wander through a few rooms looking for a new shield and sword as instructed. I see a huge number of accessible rooms, a huge number of keys, a huge number of monsters, a huge number of potions. I try out several different things, find that in all of them I get stuck extremely quickly, and think 'how on earth am I meant to decide between the millions of options I have available?'

The game is very good, the scripting engine is very good, and it was definitely worth making, but I personally don't understand how the second half is meant to be playable (obviously it is) - the strategy is beyond me, so I'll stick with classic DROD.

NiroZ
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Yeah, I was a little overwhelmed by the second half too. Ideally you should just ignore as much as possible, then come back for it when your more powerful. So focus on getting out of there. I replayed the first level of the second half 5, maybe 6 times before I got proficiently good at it.

It does take a bit of wandering around, but it's worth it.