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What you think about drod solvers?
There is a reasonable probability that someone among the top players uses drod solvers.
There is a reasonable probability that someone among the all players uses drod solvers.
There is no usefull drod solvers on the Earth now.
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zex20913
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This may be intriguing to some of you, as it has been mentioned a couple of times.

Can you make a DROD solver? (Dev board)

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01-11-2007 at 04:39 AM
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b0rsuk
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I understand it's very very very hard to write a drod solver. And it would require insane amount of work to make it understand the game. I think it will happen no sooner than we have a real Artificial Intelligence. If ever.

Even something as 'simple' as optimising 20 moves can be dreadfully complex. You forgot to include monsters. A lot of rooms depend on getting some monsters to go somewhere, avoid force arrows and other snags.
Don't forget about movement order, too ! Movement order puzzles can be designed in such way that there's NO way to know if you're choosing the right move.

For this reason I think it's extremely unrewarding to write a smart drod solver. Yes, I actully think brute force program is more realistic. Humans use lots of high-level concepts to simplify things. You don't need to understand how an engine works to drive a car. It's easy to overestimate 'intelligence' of computers until you start messing with programming. Especially Assembly. Ugh.

I guess
smart_drod_solver/bruteforce_drod_solver = conventional_3D graphics/raytraced_graphics

-----------

However, I think it's quite realistic to write successful brute force solvers for narrow tasks. These can be optimised to only perform moves which may help the cause. Some rooms will be solvable.
As we know from Challenge board, some rooms are solvable without ever rotating your sword.

Let's assume a room contains only floor, pits, walls, obstacles, doors and orbs BUT not orbs linked to doors, wubbas, fuses but NOT bombs (at least not reachable ones), 100% stable tar (2x2 etc), trapdoors, no mimics, and no monsters other than wubbas.
Such a room is likely a trapdoor puzzle. It doesn't matter. What matters is that Q, W and 5 keys are pointless in such room. Instead of 11^n , where n is lenght of solution in moves, you get 8^n . That's quite a bit less.

Further optimisations can be made. If a room contains no trapdoors, no orbs linked to doors, no bombs, no monsters, sequences of moves like NWNW are redundant. I know it's a very big if, but still.

And how about ruling out obvious stupid moves like bumping into walls or monsters ? Or waiting a turn while adjacent to a monster other than wubba, lone wraithwing, tar mother or serpent head adjacent diagonally ? That should improve chances.

Ok, forget all that and assume a room is allowed to contain all devilish DROD obstacles and puzzle elements. It would be foolish to think that the sequence of moves required to solve it is fully random. I bet such a solution sequence often contains subsequences like NNN or WW WWW. I think a lot of other interesting tendencies would show up. It would be interesting to take solution sequences for 5000 rooms and perform statistical analysis. And compare moves required to elements within the room. Find some relations. It would be VERY rare for a room solution sequence to contain subsequence like Nx40 . (it would require a tunnel).
Now if someone writes such a dirty brute-force solver which tries to perform similar (percentage) sequences of moves, chances of success should be greater. On the other hand, it would never solve some more obscure rooms.


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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 01-11-2007 10:09 AM]
01-11-2007 at 10:03 AM
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NiroZ
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So in a nutshell, your saying the easiest way to create a DROD bot would be to have a brute force solver which has as its first line of attack being a 'smart' bot, which eliminates impossibilities and finds possibilities for the brute force solver to work on.

I would also think that a computer would excel at movement order puzzles, as it would know what moves in what order, whereas a human cannot immediately see what moves in what order.
01-11-2007 at 10:44 AM
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Mattcrampy
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I have to admit, I'm more interested in the sociological implications of a solver. How many of the top ten would use a solver, if one existed, if they got desperate enough?

It's like one of those Hypotheticals they have on TV. After this, Syntax's cousin will be in a plane crash, and I'll ask how that changes his opinion.

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01-11-2007 at 03:24 PM
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b0rsuk
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I have to admit, I'm more interested in the sociological implications of a solver. How many of the top ten would use a solver, if one existed, if they got desperate enough?

I sense a wrong question. You don't use a solver because you're in top ten. Obviously, people in top 10 are having fun playing the game. You use a solver to become one of top 10 scored players.

It would go like this:

1. Top ten players don't cheat, because it's not possible to cheat at the moment.
2. Someone releases good fast solvers
3. 666 random players download solvers and use them to upload scores.
4. Now top 10 consists of cheaters only. Except for rooms which were already optimised before.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 01-11-2007 04:24 PM]
01-11-2007 at 04:23 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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As a current top ten player :thumbsup I can safely say that I would use a Drod room solver, but not on rooms I haven't already completed.

At the minute what I do when I finish a room depends on my result.
If I get a first place, I will look at the scores for the room to see by how much. (and annoy Louise by telling her how great I am)
If I get second or a first place tie I will have a glance at the high scores and assess whether it is worth trying for a 1st place.
If I get anywhere else within the top ten I will usually move on and forget about it, unless I see an obvious way to improve on my previous score.
Anything outside the top ten I will usually check scores and if I am a long way of first place have a look at one of the demos to see how I could improve. (I don't always look at the top demo) I will retry the room following the better strategy and settle for the score I get.


When drodsolver.exe turns up, I don't think I would do things very differently. I'm sure it would be a novelty that would quickly wear off.
I'm sure I would compare my demo's to the computer generated demo's and take great pleasure in beating them as often as possible. Maybe I could learn new strategies from it, as a computer based solution will be more likely to attempt non-obvious solutions to rooms.

What I wouldn't do is crank up DrodSolver.exe before going to bed at night and get up the next morning to boast about all my great work. Where is the fun in that? And what would I do once all the rooms have been finished?

Now depending on the implementation of the software, if it is guaranteed to always come up with the same solution to every room, it would be interesting to set up a high score account for it and give it a run through of every room, upload the scores and everyone can compete against it. When an improvement appears, the scores can be updated. Demos will be viewable in the same way as other players demos, and the highlight is that anyone using the solver for high scores will be easy to spot.

At the end of the day I don't think it is worth getting too stressed about. If it ever does turn up, I for one will still be here playing the latest holds. I play for fun and to relax in the evenings. The high score table has certainly been a great motivator at times to push for the next few rooms, but it wouldn't be the end of my Drodding days if it wasn't here.

Have fun and keep playing, that's why we're all here.

Steve.

01-11-2007 at 04:31 PM
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eytanz
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Except for a few factors you are forgetting (note, this is a response to b0rusk):

- You're assuming that a solver can find good scores. For most rooms, a solver will probably find a solution eventually, but not necessarily a top-8 score.

- Though that can be offset by coupling the solver with a demo copier. Still, that requires the player to not only use the solver for each room, but also download the #1 demo. And note that this method will rarely improve on existing scores, only get #1 ties.

- Even if this were to happen, some of the top ten (Rabscuttle, Wallu) have so many good scores it will take someone with a solver real dedication to actually unseat them - they'll have to play through thousands of DROD rooms. And many rooms include scripting puzzles, or puzzles which require thousands of moves, and will either require the solver going on for weeks and/or stopping and solving the hardest rooms themselves. Neither is particularly likely to happen, definitely not in large quantities.

- Not to mention that the cheaters would have to pay for SmS holds, JtRH, and Caravelnet in order to achieve this. As I mention above, if solvers become a more successful business model for Caravel than the current top 10, why fight them?

All of the above means that I think that at worst, solvers would cause a handful of problematic cases to arise in the top score range, and a somewhat bigger (but not very significant) issue in the middle ranks. I'd be very surprised if they ever become a real issue.

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01-11-2007 at 04:37 PM
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Syntax
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Well, I just wanted to respond to b0rsuk's
1. Top ten players don't cheat, because it's not possible to cheat at the moment.

By saying...
Wrong. The reason they don't cheat is that they've dedicated so much time to achieving so much in a relatively small amount of time that the mere thought of using a DROD solver goes against the very thing they have accomplished. We're talking about passion here.

I'm pretty certain Newton would have thrown a calculator back in the face of whomever offered him one.
01-11-2007 at 08:11 PM
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eytanz
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Syntax - while I agree with you, I think you are misunderstanding b0rusk's point. I think he meant "because it's not possible to cheat, the top 10 is made up of non-cheaters. If it were possible to cheat, some cheaters would have ended up among the top 10". In other words, he's not implying that anyone on the current top 10 would cheat if they could, but rather that we wouldn't all be in the top 10 if cheating was possible.


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01-11-2007 at 08:14 PM
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Syntax
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eytanz - And I agree with you. Cheating wouldn't be sophisticated enough to allow bots to catch up so, well, we would still all be in the top 10 - without cheating :)
01-11-2007 at 08:18 PM
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Elfstone
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Does it bother anyone that Elfstone's writing is as beautiful as her holds are? It doesn't seem fair for her to have all that talent to herself...
:blush :blush :blush :blush :blush :blush
Nah. I'm just happy to have her with us

:) happy to be here.
P.S. We love you, Elfstone!

:blush :blush :blush :blush

:kiss

:blush

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01-11-2007 at 10:55 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I have to admit, I'm more interested in the sociological implications of a solver. How many of the top ten would use a solver, if one existed, if they got desperate enough?

It's like one of those Hypotheticals they have on TV. After this, Syntax's cousin will be in a plane crash, and I'll ask how that changes his opinion.

If there was a freely available super efficient optimal solver, then high scores would be meaningless. So yes, I would use it. Actually, I'd probably go about creating complicated rooms and seeing what the optimal solution was. Then I think I would get bored and stop.

I am sorry for your hypothetical loss, Syntax.
01-11-2007 at 11:21 PM
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Rheb
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www... Poor Syntax :)

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01-11-2007 at 11:44 PM
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Jatopian
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Rheb wrote:
www... Poor Syntax :)
Not really. Can you imagine how miserable we'd be if we mourned everyone for what could hypothetically happen to them - or, for that matter, for what does happen to someone unknown somewhere at any given moment?

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01-12-2007 at 12:33 AM
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zex20913
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It would be mourning all the time! We'd never get any sleep.

Pun intended.

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01-12-2007 at 12:34 AM
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NiroZ
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Positive impacts of a DROD bot

-Hold Reviewer. To test each room before it is uploaded to the hold board. This would greatly cut down on the workload for people on the hold review board.

-Highscore benchmark. To redo the highscores. Instead of receiving points for your position, you receive points for how man moves lower your demo is than the 'bot' demo. (of course, it would have to be a bot that didn't try for the most optimised solution)

-Room Tester. For Architects in order to test their rooms, and find design flaws and unintended solutions. There is a risk however that this would make Architects lazy and make it too easy to create difficult puzzles.

-Room helper. Could be used to display techniques that are used in different situations. It could also be used as something enabled by architects to show how to do small portions of a room.

-Room skip. Seeing that Larrymurk has advocated this for so long, I thought I should mention it.

-Super monster. Could make a very interesting NPC as a friend and a foe.

I am still opposed to the use of bots in the current system, but with change they might become very useful.
01-12-2007 at 01:40 AM
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Mattcrampy
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http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=13363

I don't particularly want to say any more, other than that I hope the community is willing to show the maturity that has made the forum such a great place to spend time. Discussion continues behind the scenes, and it's not my place to make pronouncements (any more).

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01-12-2007 at 07:39 AM
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Briareos
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Jatopian wrote:
Rheb wrote:
www... Poor Syntax :)
Not really. Can you imagine how miserable we'd be if we mourned everyone for what could hypothetically happen to them - or, for that matter, for what does happen to someone unknown somewhere at any given moment?
Shouldn't that be "Can you hypothetically imagine how hypothetically miserable we'd hypothetically be if we hypothetically mourned everyone for what hypothetically could hypothetically happen to them - or, for that hypothetical matter, for what hypothetically does happen to someone hypothetically unknown somewhere at any given hypothetical moment?"

Just my hypothetical 2 EYPO-cents.

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01-12-2007 at 07:55 AM
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NiroZ
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Briareos wrote:
Shouldn't that be "Can you hypothetically imagine how hypothetically miserable we'd hypothetically be if we hypothetically mourned everyone for what hypothetically could hypothetically happen to them - or, for that hypothetical matter, for what hypothetically does happen to someone hypothetically unknown somewhere at any given hypothetical moment?"

Just my hypothetical 2 EYPO-cents.
Hypothetically, that's quite scary.
01-12-2007 at 08:04 AM
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kingpr
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I haven't had time to read every single word of this correspondence so this might have been mentioned before but several thoughts came to me.

1) there are extremely efficient algorithms for coming up with nearly optimal solvers for NP incomplete problems. These are not brute force so you don't have to explore every possible solution. Many rooms actually hae a much more restricted search space anyway (even in a 10x10 room not all parts are accesible typically and some moves lead to instant death anyway). So whilst the problem is tough I don't know that it's completely impossible for some rooms. What you would probably do is divide rooms up into sections (which is often part of the design anyway) making them much smaller and easier to solve.

2) Whilst I think it is unethical to use such a solver and claim the results as your own and submitting them as such, anyone who wrote such a program would have to be admired. It is certainly intellectually an enormous challenge.

3) How about turning the problem round could you use AI to desine a room? This is much harder as you would have to define some criteria for what you are aiming for (least no of solutions, most no of moves (less than infinity) to solution or some such) and there are many more elements to play with. Again for small rooms I think you might have a fighting chance.

By the way I have no intention of trying any of these I learnt computing in the days of Fortran IV on punched cards and my skills haven't improved since then, I just think this is not so impossible as some others do. I also don't think it is very desirable toher than as an intellectual challenge.
01-12-2007 at 01:18 PM
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