Syntax
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File: seeps.JPG (208.3 KB)
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I was impressed to discover that upon entering a room, orbs were toggled before the first move. However, if there are seeps on the relevant doors, they stay alive until the "first" move.

Screenshot attached.

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[Last edited by Syntax at 06-18-2006 02:47 PM]

Rabscuttle
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I believe that is intentional - the same thing occurs with seep on (cleared) blue doors.

Syntax
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Well, it can't be intentional as it's obviously wrong.

Whether it's undefined is the point.

Oneiromancer
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And if the orb toggles the door, and you hit it again on the 2nd turn, they stay alive! Fun!

My guess is that this is just the way it is, but maybe Mike will say it's not just to spite me.

Game on,

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eytanz
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Syntax wrote:
Well, it can't be intentional as it's obviously wrong.

What's so clearly wrong about it? It's unintuitive, certainly, and inconsistent with seep behavior elsewhere, but that doesn't make it clearly wrong.

Whether it's undefined is the point.

I'm not sure how you're using this term here.

This seems to me a case where room-entrance rules differ from other rules in a seemingly arbitrary way. I'm not sure it is justified, the same way Beethro's sword can be on bombs upon entrance is justified, but I'm not sure whether it's best to fix it or just leave the status-quo here.

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Syntax
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It's wrong because seeps can only live on walls...

Oneiromancer
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Yes, they only live in walls, but we know that they can leave the walls in order to kill Beethro, after which time they presumably die. So apparently they only live for 1 turn outside a wall, which is what you're seeing here! Flawlessly consistent!

Game on,

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Briareos
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Oneiromancer wrote:
So apparently they only live for 1 turn outside a wall, which is what you're seeing here! Flawlessly consistent!

Except for the little-known fact that they die instantly at all other times when you drop a door...

np: Underworld - SolaSistim (AHundredDaysOff)

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Oneiromancer
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It's, um, flawlessly consistent with all other things that happen when you first enter a room...yeah, that's the ticket...(and seriously, is the point that Eytan was trying to make, I think).

Game on,

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Kevin_P86
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Yes - it is consisitent with seeps that are not placed on an obstacle to start (including those placed on cleared blue doors which Rabscuttle mentioned). Those seeps live for one turn, and only die when you move. That's the same that is happening here.

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AlefBet
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My evaluation of this would be that it is a bug. I don't see a need to keep seep alive for one turn when outside doors (at least not for reasons similar to the bomb-sword thing), and I think it should be similar to what happens when Beethro or his sword enter on top of a monster (i.e. it dies instantly). I expect it's an oversight.

But it could be rationalized as one of the many somewhat odd things that can only happen on turn 1 at room entrance. We could say that whatever Deity that watches over the Eighth gives Seep a turn chance to be saved just as it gives Beethro a similar chance.

Anyway, it's up to Mike and Erik. My vote would be to change it, but my vote doesn't actually count and I'm not really casting it with much vigor.

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Jatopian
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AlefBet wrote:
We could say that whatever Deity that watches over the Eighth gives Seep a turn chance to be saved just as it gives Beethro a similar chance.

There's nothing supernatural in the Eighth. So sayeth Erik.

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coppro
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Jatopian wrote:

AlefBet wrote:
We could say that whatever Deity that watches over the Eighth gives Seep a turn chance to be saved just as it gives Beethro a similar chance.

There's nothing supernatural in the Eighth. So sayeth Erik.

That's quite incorrect. 'Supernatural' is defined as "not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws". Since The Eighth cannot be explained using our physics, it is therefore entirely supernatural.

ErikH2000
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coppro wrote:
That's quite incorrect. 'Supernatural' is defined as "not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws". Since The Eighth cannot be explained using our physics, it is therefore entirely supernatural.

You can't explain phenomena occuring there with our natural laws. But with their natural laws, you can. Or at least you will be able to after Wesley Chua writes all seventeen volumes of Physics of the Eighth.

I don't like stories that have magic spells contrived for different purposes so that basically anything can happen at the author's whim. For example, "You can't leave this town, because I've cast a spell of no-town-leaving on you! Ha ha ha!" It just seems so lazy. How about, "You can't leave this town because it's on an island, and I've just burned all the boats! Ha ha ha!"

The times when I've appreciated magic in stories were when some effort was put to describe how it worked and put limitations on it. And then it became a little like a natural science again.

-Erik

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coppro
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ErikH2000 wrote:

coppro wrote:
That's quite incorrect. 'Supernatural' is defined as "not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws". Since The Eighth cannot be explained using our physics, it is therefore entirely supernatural.

You can't explain phenomena occuring there with our natural laws. But with their natural laws, you can. Or at least you will be able to after Wesley Chua writes all seventeen volumes of Physics of the Eighth.

I don't like stories that have magic spells contrived for different purposes so that basically anything can happen at the author's whim. For example, "You can't leave this town, because I've cast a spell of no-town-leaving on you! Ha ha ha!" It just seems so lazy. How about, "You can't leave this town because it's on an island, and I've just burned all the boats! Ha ha ha!"

The times when I've appreciated magic in stories were when some effort was put to describe how it worked and put limitations on it. And then it became a little like a natural science again.

-Erik

That's exactly what I meant. As far as we're concerned, the Eighth is supernatural. And its highly likely that as far as the Eighth is concerned, we're supernatural.

AlefBet
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I don't like stories that have magic spells contrived for different purposes so that basically anything can happen at the author's whim. For example, "You can't leave this town, because I've cast a spell of no-town-leaving on you! Ha ha ha!" It just seems so lazy. How about, "You can't leave this town because it's on an island, and I've just burned all the boats! Ha ha ha!"

The times when I've appreciated magic in stories were when some effort was put to describe how it worked and put limitations on it. And then it became a little like a natural science again.

That's exactly the advice that Orson Scott Card gives to prospective authors of speculative fiction, and although he really champions the idea, I don't think it's unique to him. When you can make up anything in a world (which is the flexibility that speculative fiction affords you), the rules you impose on yourself become even more essential to making sure it remains interesting.

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mrimer
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Syntax wrote:
I was impressed to discover that upon entering a room, orbs were toggled before the first move. However, if there are seeps on the relevant doors, they stay alive until the "first" move.

Thanks for reporting this. I've fixed this for 2.0.15 so any seep in the open before or after the player's room entrance move will die immediately. I think it's best to not leave any room for opaque room entrance chicanery (e.g. seep live or die based on whether doors toggle on move 0).

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-25-2006 11:53 PM]