Announcement: To see an overview of all the holds in this forum, see this page. You cannot directly add your hold by attaching it here - you must get your hold approved by Hold Administrators. Check this thread for details.


Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Beethro's Teacher (Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection)
1
Page 2 of 6
3456
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Your Rating
Average User Rating
Difficulty:
Overall:


8.2/10 (58 votes)
σ 2.10
Author Name:Henri Kareinen
Submitted By:Doom
Hold Name:Beethro's Teacher
Theme:Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:8
Number of Rooms:106
Number of Monsters:1375
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
High Scores:View High Scores
Hold Karma:22 (+25 / -3)
Poster Message
Briareos
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3515
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Doom wrote:
(edit - I'll try to get the missing level entrance texts done now before too many people get this version)
(edit - done)
I just found that you could kill Denfry in "Third Level: 1E" when he stands in the corridor - I guess that's not supposed to happen, right?

np: Richard Devine - CR Scope (Aleamapper)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009) :(
06-11-2006 at 08:36 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3189
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Just pretend you didn't see anything :shifty

If something bigger comes up, it should be fixed, but it's not worth an own update.
06-11-2006 at 10:09 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 678
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
YAYYY!!!! Conquered!!! Umm, actually, not really. There's a stairs bug. I went down the stairs at the end of Level 3, immediately onto the stairs again at the beginning of L4, and down the stairs on L3 again, to be informed that I have conquered the hold.
06-12-2006 at 07:56 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3189
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
What? Stefan found that during testing, and I swear I fixed it. Maybe I just forgot... (?)

The thing is that half of the staircase leads to the 4th level, while the other half of the staircase ends the hold.

What's the general policy on hold update frequency? Should I fix that immediately? Someone *might* have bad luck with those stairs and think that the hold is not fully explorable.
06-12-2006 at 08:05 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 678
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Doom wrote:
Should I fix that immediately? Someone *might* have bad luck with those stairs and think that the hold is not fully explorable.
I'd wait a little. If someone does think the hold can't be fully explored, they can always check the forum, or they'll see later that it's been updated. Anyway, judging by the high scores, I don't think you should worry about too many players being there yet.
06-12-2006 at 08:17 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
I don't really want to comment properly until I finish, but I have to say that my favourite speech (so far) is at the start of the goblin manipulation room. heeheehee
06-13-2006 at 04:02 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 678
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+2)  
Doom, for the next update you may want to fix L3:2W. My solution is unintended, and makes it really easy.
06-13-2006 at 10:23 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Completed :D

Very interesting information in the final level. Now on to the secret rooms...
06-13-2006 at 03:42 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1195
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
What I want to know is if I should finish this before starting TCB. Is the end important to it?
06-13-2006 at 03:44 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
No. None of the SmS holds are critical to the TCB story. The all flesh out the world a bit and add some detail - and both Perfection and Beethro's Teacher are referenced in passing in TCB - but you won't be missing out on anything in TCB if you don't do these first.

Note that TCB development is progressing along nicely right now (after a bit of a low spot when everyone was busy and then the server crash), but I'd say you have plenty of time to finish Beethro's Teacher before that.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
06-13-2006 at 03:59 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1195
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Except for the fact that I can't do most of the rooms! Guess I'll ask a lot of hints then.
06-13-2006 at 04:37 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Mastered :D

Very cool signature room.

Just re-downloading it, then I'll make some comments.
06-13-2006 at 04:47 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Ezlo wrote:
Except for the fact that I can't do most of the rooms! Guess I'll ask a lot of hints then.

Level 1, at least, has plenty of good hints already available. One of the good things about this hold is that while very hard, the thought process behind most of the rooms (in the first level, at least, I still have 1 room left before I reach level 2) is pretty similar. So, you can read the hints for one room to see what the mindset you need is, and maybe that'll help you with other rooms too.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
06-13-2006 at 05:01 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+2)  
Comments:

Click here to view the secret text


One final thing: I'll say again that I recommend cutting and pasting Denfry's face from the CD cover here or this page over the guard's head in the faces.png file. (make a backup first). Definitely adds to the experience.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 06-13-2006 06:23 PM]
06-13-2006 at 06:12 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3189
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Rabscuttle wrote:
Just re-downloading it, then I'll make some comments.
You may want to re-download it again, because there was just another hold update.

In case someone is curious, the fixed things are: Killing Denfry in L2:1E, a trivial solution in L2:2W, correcting a very minor trivial trick in L4:1S2E, and fixing the timer in L6:3S1W.
Click here to view the secret text
Click here to view the secret text
Click here to view the secret text
Click here to view the secret text


And before I forget it, thanks a lot for the comments, Rabscuttle!
06-13-2006 at 06:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Doom wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Just re-downloading it, then I'll make some comments.
You may want to re-download it again, because there was just another hold update.

In case someone is curious, the fixed things are: Killing Denfry in L2:1E, a trivial solution in L2:2W, correcting a very minor trivial trick in L4:1S2E, and fixing the timer in L6:3S1W.

Ooh, I forgot to mention that there's another slightly trivial solution in L6:2S
Click here to view the secret text



06-14-2006 at 02:34 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
devNull
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 20
Registered: 12-08-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Wow. Least fun hold ever. I've never felt like playing
DROD was a chore until I played this hold. I can appreciate the
ingenuity of it all, but it simply is not fun. I certainly hope
that the remaining SmS holds I'm eligible for offer more in terms
of enjoyment.

____________________________
devNull
06-14-2006 at 08:16 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3189
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Yes - I could expect to hear that from someone who hasn't completed any of the official holds. And only few rooms of the hard ones like Perfection. (At least by looking at your high scores)

I know the feeling, several holds I've played have been just too tedious to be fun. I'd recommend putting it off for now, maybe playing some easier holds, and possibly returning to it later when you've got more experience. Getting better at DROD makes some of the hardest rooms much more playable.
I certainly hope
that the remaining SmS holds I'm eligible for offer more in terms
of enjoyment.
If you enjoy easier holds, there's at least the child-aimed hold coming, which was postponed due to potential architects having other things to do on the spring period.
06-15-2006 at 09:16 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
devNull
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 20
Registered: 12-08-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
Doom wrote:
Yes - I could expect to hear that from someone who hasn't completed any of the official holds. And only few rooms of the hard ones like Perfection. (At least by looking at your high scores)

I've completed KDD twice, thank you very much. I just wasn't
part of CaravelNet when I did it. I've also completed most of
Perfection and the Secret Society, although I play those at work
during my lunch hour and the firewall there doesn't allow me use
of CaravelNet. Besides, I don't really care about the high scores
aspect of CN and rarely connect when I'm playing even at home. All
I want from CN are the SmS holds, so I feel disappointed by this
one.

I know the feeling, several holds I've played have been just too tedious to be fun. I'd recommend putting it off for now, maybe playing some easier holds, and possibly returning to it later when you've got more experience.

You missed my point. Possibly because I didn't make it clear. The
hold isn't fun not because it is difficult, but because of why
it is difficult. The difference is significant.


I certainly hope
that the remaining SmS holds I'm eligible for offer more in terms
of enjoyment.
If you enjoy easier holds, there's at least the child-aimed hold coming, which was postponed due to potential architects having other things to do on the spring period.

I'm not sure whether you're being condescending there, or not, but
I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt in such cases,
so I assume you're being sincere. So I reiterate, I don't mind
difficult holds. I do mind tedious, boring and annoying
ones, though. Especially if I have to pay for them.

____________________________
devNull
06-15-2006 at 02:58 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
devNull wrote:
You missed my point. Possibly because I didn't make it clear. The
hold isn't fun not because it is difficult, but because of why
it is difficult. The difference is significant.

Well, maybe you should explain why, then. Just saying "it was "tedious, boring and annoying" and "[felt] like a chore" is just griping, not providing feedback. If you want Doom to take your opinion into account in his future holds - and perhaps more importantly, the SmS reviewers to take you into account in future SmS selection, say what it is about Beethro's Teacher you found tedious. You might also want to mention how far you've gotten - while I've only just completed level 1 so I can't judge for myself, it's been the consensus that it was the hardest level by a noticable (though not perhaps very wide) margin and once past it the hold flows more smoothly. The problem is that most people who reached this conclusion were those who enjoyed level 1. If you played to further levels and didn't like them as well, that's valuable data for the future.

So don't keep it to yourself. Just posting some negative opinions about a hold isn't particularly helpful. You're in a position to give constructive criticism to Doom and to the SmS process, so do so.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
06-15-2006 at 03:07 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
devNull
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 20
Registered: 12-08-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+2)  
eytanz wrote:
So don't keep it to yourself.

Fair enough.

The most annoying thing about this hold, to me, is that the rooms
are way too packed with tricks and traps. One of the better examples
of this is 1S. Every little queen section could be a separate room,
but they've all been crammed into one. So when I solve one little
queen section, I've really solved (ca.) the equivalent of a normal
hold's room, but I don't get the gratification that comes with
solving a room, because there are 4 more sections to do. Again, it's
not the difficulty of each little section that puts me off, it's the
fact that the room itself is artificially being made more difficult
by cramming it with puzzles. Compare this to any room from KDD,
which is, in my opinion, still the finest hold ever created and,
at this stage, I doubt it will ever be topped. It is absolutely
perfect. Every room is a single idea, tightly implemented, with
none of the "well, you've solved this little bit, but you've got
10 billion more to go before I let you out of here" nonsense.

To be fair, I haven't completed level 1 of Teacher. I simply
don't want to play it. It's not fun. I don't get any satisfaction
from it. Maybe it gets better at level 2 and I'm being unfair.
I might never know, because I don't see myself going back to this
hold.

____________________________
devNull
06-15-2006 at 03:38 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+3)  
devNull wrote:
The most annoying thing about this hold, to me, is that the rooms
are way too packed with tricks and traps. One of the better examples
of this is 1S. Every little queen section could be a separate room,
but they've all been crammed into one. So when I solve one little
queen section, I've really solved (ca.) the equivalent of a normal
hold's room, but I don't get the gratification that comes with
solving a room, because there are 4 more sections to do. Again, it's
not the difficulty of each little section that puts me off, it's the
fact that the room itself is artificially being made more difficult
by cramming it with puzzles. Compare this to any room from KDD,
which is, in my opinion, still the finest hold ever created and,
at this stage, I doubt it will ever be topped. It is absolutely
perfect. Every room is a single idea, tightly implemented, with
none of the "well, you've solved this little bit, but you've got
10 billion more to go before I let you out of here" nonsense.

It's an interesting take on the hold in general and 1S in particular. Allow me to offer a dissenting opinion.

I actually think that the organization of 1S is excellent. There are certainly multiple portions to solve, but a) they're all checkpointed, and b) they're all clear variations on a theme. Once I was sufficiently in the mindset that I could solve the second section, the rest of the room fell into place very quickly.

As to the other rooms on Level 1 (and I can't comment past that...yet), I think that 'packed with tricks and traps' is not a very accurate description. Each room has one, possibly two significant tricks that you need to figure out, and then in many cases the room becomes quite easy to do. In several of these rooms, the interaction of the tricks is part of the puzzle.

I think that the difficulty level is quite high, and this is what I find daunting about this hold...but if I'm interpreting your comments properly you seem to be claiming that each room is too 'busy', which I would have to strongly disagree with.

Still, though, if you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it.

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck
06-15-2006 at 03:52 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 678
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Yes, I have to say, "tedious and boring" really doesn't apply. The rooms are difficult because they have a difficult puzzle element. There's always some or other trick you have to spot, but once you know what to do, it's easy enough to do it. As for the multiple section rooms, I think the idea is that they get progressively more difficult, so you actually get a chance to get used to the idea before tackling the final and most difficult section, which would probably have seemed more difficult if it were the only one.
06-15-2006 at 04:02 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
My own opinion is a lot close to jbluestein. I feel that most rooms in level 1(other than 1S, my least favourite room of the level, which is actually a non-representitive exception) have really a single main trick you need to figure out. Of course, it's not usually as simple as "hit this orb before that orb", but rather a very specific action that normally involves timing spawns, but I also always felt that once I take the rest of the room into consideration, it became clear *what* to do, and a bit more thought and experimentation taught me *how* to do it.

What I really liked about Beethro's Teacher - and apparently was not devNull's experience - is that once I had the right idea, it was obviously the right idea. There were no false leads, or ideas that seem correct until you spend 30 minutes on getting them to work and then realize you were doing the wrong thing the whole time. If something failed, it failed almost immediately, and almost always in a constructive manner. 1S, again, is the clear exception here. Comparing this hold to Perfection, I spent a lot more time in that hold trying random things out until one worked, which is part of the reason I've been stuck there for ages while I feel a lot more motivated to continue with Beethro's Teacher.

All this goes to show that people's experiences vary; I think the solution - which has already been agreed upon by everyone who gets to decide on these things - is just make sure the SmS holds aren't as difficult to begin with, since holds as difficult as this and Perfection will always be enjoyable by just a relatively small portion of the playing population.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
06-15-2006 at 04:04 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1195
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (0)  
michthro wrote:
Yes, I have to say, "tedious and boring" really doesn't apply.

Please add "to me" to that sentence. It really bothers me how everyone on this forum believes that their opinion is the only opinion and that everyone agrees with them. I do it too. I try not to, but I do. Everyone has their own opinion. Someone could find Beethro's Teacher Heaven on Earth, some find it Devil's Spawn. (I'm in between the two.)

And I'm just stating my opinion, not what I believe is fact.
06-15-2006 at 04:07 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 678
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+3)  
Since I was, as you point out, clearly stating an opinion, I'd think the "to me" part can be taken as read. It would be tedious and annoying to append "to me" every time I state an opinion.
06-15-2006 at 04:27 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5348
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+2)  
michthro wrote:
Since I was, as you point out, clearly stating an opinion, I'd think the "to me" part can be taken as read. It would be tedious and annoying to append "to me" every time I state an opinion.
You mean it would be tedious and annoying *to you*.

O:-

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
06-15-2006 at 04:32 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 678
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+2)  
I stand corrected. Note that that is only my opinion. Someone else may disagree with you, in which case they have a different opinion. That's what I think anyway, or in other words, all this is merely my opinion. (Quoted with permission from AlefBet, though it's only my opinion that I have his permission. Someone else may read his sig differently, or more importantly, he may not have meant it that way. In my opinion.) This is all too complicated.. to me.
06-15-2006 at 04:40 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2934
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+1)  
Ezlo wrote:
Please add "to me" to that sentence. It really bothers me how everyone on this forum believes that their opinion is the only opinion and that everyone agrees with them. I do it too. I try not to, but I do.
Yeah, I kind of find this surprising, because I read your response in michthro's Mastering thread in a kind of "this is my opinion and it's how others should feel" way. Not as blatant as that, but the vehemence really surprised me.

Anyway, I thought it was pretty obvious that michthro was stating his opinion.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
06-15-2006 at 05:29 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Beethro's Teacher (+2)  
As I play more I am finding something more along the lines of--

There are really clever tricks here. I will say this firmly. However, the problem is.

To catch on to these clever, clever tricks, you must already be in a position where finishing up is trivial.

For instance, we take that room with the six roach queen chambers, and efficiency, yada yada yada.

The 'trick' is one thing, the bit that makes it even remotely imaginable (50 dkp minus) to do the room.

The assumption is that you already know how to be efficient enough with roaches to do that part trivially.

Now, most of us regulars have been playing DROD for years. For the most part, we know how to kill the three-wide column of roaches in KDD without using the alcove. We could probably kill the evil eyes in that one room in level three or whatever without moving our swords, as he goes on about in KDD 2.0.

These parts are frigging /trivial/ to people who are fairly skilled at the game.

Perfection and Beethro's Teacher are difficult for completely different reasons. Perfection basically demands a specific series of moves in every room, and it's usually pretty obvious when you've screwed it up.

Beethro's Teacher has some underlying concept to it that makes the room difficult. You should, hypothetically, walk away from each room with 'Huh, I never thought of doing that before.' Of course, most of the lessons you'll learn in the hold aren't really going to be THAT useful in other holds, but you still get the general idea you've become more teh l33t in DROD.

The problem is--naturally, to beat the hold, it's assumed you'll figure out all the tricks yourself. A lot of us are used to playing a hold and then just going at it till you beat it. Unless you're Rabscuttle, this hold is /not going to let you do that/.

So you're going to get frustrated. The problem is also that, as an SmS, it's got canon story to it. I think the only reason I'm even considering actually finishing Perfection is because of the story elements.

So what the people on the lower-middle end of the skill scale are left with is a hold that they need to finish to get the full DROD story, but have real little chance of doing so at the moment--and this is a hold they technically /paid/ for.

So, yeah. It's going to frustrate a lot of people when this happens. I'm almost tempted to ask that we at least get some kind of 'story mode' with SmS's, ala the KDD 2.0 ending, so that we can at least know what happens in them and the like either to refresh ourselves on the story quickly, or just to get the story of the hold down without having to beat what, for a lot of people, just isn't doable right now. And likely won't be for several months. God knows I'd never have been able to touch Beethro's Teacher when I started, and it's highly discouraging when one of the first holds somebody sees as IMPORTANT STORY HOLD is nearly impossible for them to even consider.


06-15-2006 at 05:45 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
1
Page 2 of 6
3456
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Beethro's Teacher (Spring 2006 Smitemasters Selection)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.