robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 845
Registered: 09-01-2004
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Regarding this topic I feel like saying this.
(I started a new topic, because not everybody know all the features and because it's nice to have a summary)

I think one undo is more as enough.
With AE and JtRH we are helped/spoiled enough allready:
AE
*checpoints
*... (I don't know much about webfoot DROD, so I think this is the biggest help)

JtRH:
*clickable orbs
*clickable tunnels
*the undo-button
*ctrl-button
*clickable map
*visable clock
*square when you took an invisable potion
*... (maybee more that I forgot)

features you can add:
*a better Clock
*transparent tar/mud (I'm against it, only used it once witn one room in perfection then removed it)

Comming up in TCB
*room lock
*clickable bombs
*unlimited undo when hold & room is finished
*... (also maybe more that I forgot)

Please correct me if I forgot something, I'll add it here, so you have a nice summary.

I think most of it is just for players, who jump in the game and play like a fool,or for lazy players, when in the original DROD, you HAD to be carefull,
and I find that's just the beauty of the game.

So that's said.

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[Last edited by robin at 02-20-2006 02:20 PM]

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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robin wrote:
Regarding this topic I feel like saying this.
(I started a new topic, because not everybody know all the features and because it's nice to have a summary)

I feel compelled to reply here, although I might be overdoing my whole argument by doing so.

I think one undo is more as enough.
With AE and JtRH we are helped/spoiled enough allready:

That depends on what you mean...

*square when you took an invisable potion

I'm sure this was a Webfoot feature right from the start.

I think most of it is just for players, who jump in the game and play like a fool,or for lazy players, when in the original DROD, you HAD to be carefull,
and I find that's just the beauty of the game.

The only thing is, were there highscores and Caravel.net features in original DROD?

I have checked your scores, and you are currently 59th, with 3364 points, 1647 highscores (you're in 43rd for this), and only 1 #1 place highscore! So, it suggests that you're only interested in playing the rooms, and not going for any highscores, right?

However, there are many people who are interested in highscores, and want to get points on the scoring system for being optimal, as well as facing the challenge of it, which can be many times harder than the original room itself. In such a case unlimited undo would be useful for this purpose, just as a checkpoint is a tool you can use to help you clear a difficult tar maze. As an example, have you ever played Bavato's dungeon L13 2S 4E without checkpoints?

Tscott wrote about this room:
Evil personified

In a similar way, I don't think someone who wishes to replay a room many times over for a highscore (and more importantly for #1) is lazy in most senses of the word. The beauty of DROD to me at least is the sheer number of tactics and strategies you can use to solve a room, and how only one of these (or maybe a few similar ones) is the most optimal, and therefore the most elegant. Would you be more impressed by an outstanding and unexpected 30 move solution, or a more sloppy 100 move one? This is why I'd advocate UU as a tool for helping players attain the highscore goal, and therefore become more skilled players - I don't think a person should be penalised just for making a typo, or perhaps for not being able to compute decision trees for more than 2-3 moves. I'd also say it should only be a feature for players who have already proven they can complete the room without it, just like viewing demos for rooms, which is the compromise suggested by skell and I.

In such a case, you'd still have to complete the room first, and if you want to use UU, you'd be making the effort to replay the room which I wouldn't exactly consider lazy.

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Resident Medic/Mycologist

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 02-18-2006 04:14 PM]

KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
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I can remember spending days on the three tar mother room on level 8. I got to the point where I could have killed the first two tar mothers with my eyes closed. Checkpoints didn't make figuring out how to solve the room any easier. They simply eliminated the tedium of repeating a long sequence of moves over and over.

Single undo doesn't really make solving a room any easier. It's main use is for correcting miskeys. It simply makes DROD more user-friendly. The thing to keep in mind about original DROD is that there was only a single 350 room dungeon to play around in. Timesaving options like checkpoints and undo weren't really needed. That's not really true in todays environment.

Two more things missing from the original DROD: a move counter and the ability to record demos (unless you were Matthew Daly). You could play around with trying new ways of solving a room, but there was no practical way of comparing solutions. It wasn't until JTRH that how you solved a room became as important as whether or not you did solve it.

Given that we're talking about a new way of playing the game, it only makes sense to re-evaluate previous conceptions. The current concept of unlimited undo won't remove any challenge from the game since it only comes in play once you've beaten the room; this is the same point where you get access to all the high score demos. Going for high scores involves replaying the same rooms over and over; making this less painful seems like a good idea.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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agaricus5 wrote:

*square when you took an invisable potion

I'm sure this was a Webfoot feature right from the start.

If this means the darker square around the player when invisible, I added this in 1.5.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 02-04-2003
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mrimer wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:

*square when you took an invisable potion

I'm sure this was a Webfoot feature right from the start.

If this means the darker square around the player when invisible, I added this in 1.5.

Aah, yes. I remember now.

Ahem.

*Goes off to hide in a corner*

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Resident Medic/Mycologist

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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KevG wrote:
The current concept of unlimited undo won't remove any challenge from the game since it only comes in play once you've beaten the room; this is the same point where you get access to all the high score demos.

Assuming that one has CaravelNet, of course. Probably doesn't make a difference, but just thought I'd point that out.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

robin
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 845
Registered: 09-01-2004
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agaricus5 wrote:

robin wrote:
I think most of it is just for players, who jump in the game and play like a fool,or for lazy players, when in the original DROD, you HAD to be carefull,
and I find that's just the beauty of the game.

The only thing is, were there highscores and Caravel.net features in original DROD?

I have checked your scores, and you are currently 59th, with 3364 points, 1647 highscores (you're in 43rd for this), and only 1 #1 place highscore! So, it suggests that you're only interested in playing the rooms, and not going for any highscores, right?

I sometimes try to get highscore, but I'm just not that efficient, so I enjoy playing the rooms just to finish

But I have been working for that 59th place, I wanted to be on the 3rd page

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