Dragon Fogel
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Note: The latest version is attached to this post. You can look through this thread for older versions if you're curious about them for whatever reason.


Here are some rooms. I originally made these for various NaDRODArchMo events, mostly from last year's. These are basically the rooms I thought were worth using that I didn't use for something already.

I've sorted them into levels based vaguely on themes, and that's pretty much it. Some of them are very tough, but I know I solved them back in the day. The ones on the first level aren't, they're rooms I thought were interesting but not all that developed.

I was not feeling particularly creative in terms of titles or descriptions. If inspiration strikes, I may actually name this and write some actual descriptions, but I wouldn't count on that happening.

Changes in second version:


Changes in third version:


Changes in fourth version:



Changes in fifth version:



Changes in sixth version:



Changes in seventh version:



Changes in eighth version:



Changes in ninth version:


Changes in tenth version:


Changes in eleventh version:



Changes in twelfth version:



Changes in thirteenth version:



Changes in fourteenth version:



Changes in fifteenth version:



Changes in sixteenth version:

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-21-2025 09:43 PM]

Red-XIII
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I decided to test this hold since I was pretty curious to see what you came up with. Overall this is a really tough hold with pretty difficult rooms, though there are interesting concepts.
I’m not sure if the layout will stay as it is, but I think that during testing it would be better to create a hub so that the tester can visit all the levels and record demos.

About the aesthetics, some of the rooms are/feel quite empty and asymmetric (e.g. most of the entrances), though I assume you will leave decorative stuff at the end.

More specific comments below:

First level


Constructs


Fegundos



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First Level:


Fegundos:


I guess I can add stairways going backwards and remove the blue doors temporarily for tester convenience.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-03-2025 11:54 PM : attaching original version in case I need it later]

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New version. For testing convenience, blue doors are removed, except on the last level, and there are staircases to previous levels.

Other than that, changes are as follows:
Fegundos Entrance: Added a target to force putting the mimic in the right place.
Fegundos 1E: Tweaked the room to make solving it involve more deliberate decisions. Possibly went a little overboard.

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Please add the latest version only the first post, so that it is easy to track the latest update.

Here are more comments and a demo pack.

Constructs: the size of the exit route to 1E is different to the actual size of 1E.
Brains: 1W, please make it clear the there is a dagger beneath the gel baby.

Fegundos


Potions and mimics


Guards



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Xindaris
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I was playing on the version in the first post so far, so this might be slightly out of date...but I've only managed to finish First Level anyway. Every room in Aumtlich has me stumped.

Anyway...



EDIT:

Downloaded the newer version, and played some of Fluff. Demos attached to this post now include that level. Thoughts:


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[Last edited by Xindaris at 01-03-2025 05:13 PM]

Dragon Fogel
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Red XIII:



Xindaris:



It's clear that I need to do a full runthrough of this myself sooner rather than later. I'll post a new version with the latest edits in a moment, but then I'll be confirming I didn't cause any further issues by putting the rooms in a bad position or whatever, and also refreshing myself on some of the ones I only solved when I first made the room and haven't re-solved - I do know I wouldn't have stopped with a room I couldn't solve, so any unsolvability would only come from rearranging the rooms into this form.

As a general point, I'm not opposed to toughening up the easier rooms, but I consider their current forms okay and I don't have any specific ideas for toughening them up right now anyhow. The really easy rooms are on the first floor, although 1S is admittedly a bit tougher than the other two. Still easier than most of the rooms in the rest of the hold.

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New version, which is also in the first post. I've put the original version in my second post in the thread just in case I need to look at it for some reason.

I have made a note of the updates in the first post and don't have much energy to repeat myself right now, so check there if you're curious. I have also confirmed that every room up through Potions and Mimics is solvable. There's a lot of difficulty variance even on the same level, though.

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I've run through everything up to Giants. I'm looking at a few changes but haven't made them yet.

Details, spoilered in case you don't want to know anything about solutions whatsoever:

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New version, featuring the room I forgot to include (Aumtlich 1W). Also some changes, the biggest one being a tweak to First Level 1N. In addition, I decided to add a sword token on a black door to Tarstuff 1E in order to make cleanup easier, because it's quite difficult right now. Other than that, I changed the direction of the tunnel in Tarstuff 1S and I added more checkpoints to some rooms. And also moved a checkpoint in Giants 1W that was on a wall.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-05-2025 09:32 PM]

NoahT
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Dragon Fogel wrote:

Click here to view the secret text

×Fluff 1E: After refreshing myself on the room, the fluff manipulation is pretty simple even with the restrictions, since you can just keep reattaching puffs partway through. So you've got a point here.
The idea is to delay the briar long enough for you to get through the passage while not blocking it indefinitely, and I remember that taking some thought while I was trying this out. Might as well just make that the whole room. Adding a speed potion, another one on the pressure plate in the final passage, and making that plate reset the doors.

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Here are more comments and a new demo pack.
As a general comment, I think there is a lot of unused space on some of the rooms (e.g. tarstuff 1S1W). It’s not a bad thing, just something worth considering IMO.

First level 1N: despite being still easy, I like this tiny modification.
Potions and mimics

Guards
1S: still a bit fiddly, but WAY less frustrating than the spear. Also, I complicated things by not realizing that I could push the guard in the water right away and still kill the seep.

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Fluff 1E: Made a change to fix the issue Noah noted above. Also moved the speed potion and staff token closer to the room entrance.

Giants 1W: I tried a few strategies to nerf this, but nothing seemed to work well. Tunnels didn't help much, and I tried expanding the puzzle area a little, but that just made it harder to move golems when I wanted to.
So I've just added a pressure plate that turns on a corner firetrap, which makes the room significantly easier while requiring a lot of the same tricks. Currently there's just a scroll indicating it's not necessary. I won't actually script this as a challenge unless somebody besides me gets it in testing and thinks it's fair enough to inflict it on the challenge completionists.

This is the list of rooms I'm currently thinking about changing, based on feedback and my own runthrough. Haven't committed to changing any yet, though.

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New version, this is also attached to the first post now.

Brains 1E: Toughened up the room by limiting your access to the upper trapdoors. I think it's got a more distinct concept now.

Guards 1W: Added a force arrow under the stalwart to keep him in place until the right time, and a scroll to make its presence more obvious. This does not substantially change the solution, but it makes execution a bit easier.

This leaves the rooms I'm looking at toughening up as follows:

-Aumtlich 1W
-Fluff 1W
-Guards 1N
-Giants 1N
-Tarstuff 1S1W

Would appreciate thoughts on whether I should, and suggestions on what I could do as I've stared at all of these for a while without really thinking of anything. Obviously, feedback on any other rooms would be great too.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-10-2025 10:07 PM]

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Toughened up Guards 1N with a bad pressure plate around the edge of the box (and moving the monsters to make it work as a mechanism), and made Giants 1N a little bit trickier but probably not that much more so. Still, I like it better than what I had. First post updated with this version of the hold, as well.

That leaves Aumtlich 1W, Fluff 1W and Tarstuff 1S1W as the rooms I'd like to do more with. With the first two, I've had a lot of trouble thinking of what to do with either of them. It took me several sessions of wracking my brains just to come up with the ideas that are currently there. So while those may change too, I might just give up and go with them as they are. We'll see what happens.

For Tarstuff 1S1W: (solution spoilers follow)

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-10-2025 10:11 PM]

Red-XIII
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Guards 1N: Actually, I don’t really like this new version, it’s way too much fiddly and trial and error. Controlling both the guard and the snake (with snake movement) is also a bit trial and error. Have you considered not using the plate and instead limiting the number of times you can use the tunnels?

Rock giants 1N: I broke this version of 1N. Though, I kind of like the way I did it.

Aumtlich 1W: I actually like this room the way it is. This is not easy at all, there are several maneuvers you need to do with the mirror.
Aumtlich, the entrance: The first time I tried it I was completely stuck on this room. This time, luring the aumtlich in the chamber was easy (the first time as well). Entering is not easy but interesting (for some reason I found it really hard the first time). To kill the ww, I did it immediately after opening the red doors, which I assume it is intended. I spent 10 minutes trying to kill it later, it’s either impossible or very fiddly. I’m not sure if it’s best to give the player a hint (somehow) that the ww can and must be killed immediately.

Demos attached.


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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 01-14-2025 07:45 PM]

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Made a fix for Giants 1N that's more interesting than just adding a pressure plate. I'll upload it once I decide what to do with Guards 1N.

Aumtlich Entrance: I killed the wraithwing the same way in my demo, been too long since I made the room to remember if that was the intent.

Aumtlich 1W: I didn't feel like I was doing that much with the mirror when I was testing the change, though watching your demo makes me realize that getting the aumtlich to light the fuse is a little bit tricky and I'm fine with that.

I'm skeptical that limiting the tunnel usage would do much for Guards 1N, but I can try it out.

Edit: I did. The guard can kill the rattlesnake with zero tunnel usage in their original positions and this is not interesting at all, nor do I see any way for the guard to die with less than two tunnel uses. It's a bit better with the guard free and the snake in the middle as in the current version, but only if you're trying to do it relatively fast. I do have to admit the current version is pretty fiddly, but it does require actually caring about where the snake goes. Maybe I'll just try making the box bigger so you have a little more leeway on avoiding the plate.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-14-2025 10:15 PM]

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Responding to the edit in my above post about Guards 1N: after trying it out, I prefer expanding the box but keeping the pressure plate to trying to limit tunnel usage. This should be more manageable.

Giants 1N should prevent the unintended solution and also make the room a bit more distinct.

I also tried to improve the aesthetics on the First Level, not sure how much I succeeded.

I also poked at Tarstuff 1S1W to see if I could toughen it up a bit. Tried implementing some shenanigans with two decoys, disarm tokens, and pushing (using a mimic so the decoys stay disarmed) but I couldn't get it to work without adding something else that would make it less satisfying. I'll give this one some more thought.

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Guards 1N: This is A LOT better! You still need to be careful and manipulate the snake, but the extra leeway makes it not frustrating but interesting.

Rock giants 1N: I love this solution, which I assume it’s intended, given the layout that prevents you from killing a golem last.

Aumtlich 1N: can you make it obvious that the diagonal starting from the fuse is the same of the door? Aside from that, relatively straightforward room in parsing it, but figuring out the execution was not easy, though quite fun, at least for me.

Aumtlich 1S: it was a bit trial and error at first and quite irritating that most of the times I got stuck due to two beams. Even though I knew which spots were better (diagonal ones) it was quite tough to figure out the right way to move the kegs. Once I solved it, after rewatching my demo and replaying it, it felt “easy”, it was a weird feeling. I guess this is one of those rooms that is hard at first and then, once you solved it, you appreciate it better. The location of the checkpoints imply that you need UU to take just a few steps back. It is very easy to get stuck here. Maybe another checkpoint further south could be useful.

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Dragon Fogel
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You actually broke Giants 1N:



Latest version makes a slight tweak which should enforce what's actually intended.

In addition, I found a way to toughen up Tarstuff 1S1W that I liked. Also decorated the Aumtlich and Fluff levels a bit.

I still haven't had any thoughts for what to do with Aumtlich 1W or Fluff 1W. Red XIII thought the former was fine, so if I do change anything, it'll probably be more along the lines of "slight twist to what you're already doing". I'm also contemplating moving the construct level ahead of the fluff level, since it's probably easier (mostly due to not having a room as tough as Fluff 1E). Maybe even ahead of the aumtlich level.

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I agree with moving the constructs level earlier, since it is one of the easiest level.

Fuff: the entrance: I’m really hoping this is intended, otherwise it can be really fiddly to put all those mirrors in the shallow water while dealing with a lot of water skippers.

Fluff: 1W: now that I understood the main trick, the room was almost “easy”. Yet, the first section is fine the way it is IMO, since many players, like me, will struggle to figure out how to solve it. After you solve the first section, the only way I see to make the second section interesting is by adding a timer, since the location of the fluff blob is pretty straightforward.

Fluff 1E: I cannot find any good configuration for the fluff blobs sadly.

Other, the entrance: this felt way too easy considering the layout of the middle area.

Other, 1S: I liked the concept here, and I figured out that the solution must have involved the kegs like that, but I got the slayer manipulation by chance, as in, the way to make him stay still without following me.

Other, 1N: not sure this is intended. I did not even parse the room, I just went for the obvious thing to do and let Halph do the rest.

Tarstuff 1S1W: I like this new version, though it is still quite easy. I wonder if it is possible to do it with just one keg.

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New version posted.

Fluff Entrance: Yeah, that's intended. The tricky version of this room is in March Madness.

Fluff 1W: At one point I tried a variation of the second section which used two fluff blobs, but I couldn't figure out a setup that wasn't either too complicated or just as straightforward.

Fluff 1E: This is one of the toughest rooms. Here's some hints.



Other Entrance: It's trickier if you don't just rush north. Unfortunately I can't see a good way to enforce that. I tried moving the pressure plate, but rushing north still worked to make the center area mostly irrelevant. Maybe I could move the goblins closer?

Other 1S: My solution is slightly different, and more deliberate on the slayer manipulation. But the basic ideas are all the same in yours. Nice touch with killing the Slayer.

Other 1N: Clearly I didn't tighten this up enough. I've tweaked it a bit so that it's hopefully more challenging to figure out, and should now require the main trick of the room.

In addition, I fixed Giants 1N yet again. It should finally work properly this time, knock on wood.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-17-2025 07:01 PM]

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Giants 1N: Ok this HAS to be intended. It looked impossible at first, but then I managed to found the answer to “where should I place the ww?” And it hit me. Lovely room.

Other, the entrance: indeed, it did not change a lot, I can just rush north. It’s not trivial, just not that interesting. Maybe try 4 goblins? Add a timer? Create a mechanism such that you cannot stay more than one turn on the same row or column?

Other, 1N: ok this time I had to parse the room and it did not feel trivial. Not too hard, but that’s ok, I liked the Halph trick.

Brains 1W: I did not use the dagger token, I don’t think that is intended.

The other brain rooms are way above my skills.


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Giants 1N solution is the intended one now. So is Other 1N.

Comments on the former:


Brains 1W seems to be a thing where I had one trick in mind, but added some extra mechanisms, and they break the trick? I don't even remember why I added those, so I removed them. Solution should be enforced now.

For Other: Entrance, I tried adding some force arrows. That seems to have made rushing non-viable, while still making the room solvable.

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Other, 1N: This is a lot better I think. Not trivial, not hard, and most importantly not fiddly.

Brains 1W: I am guessing I need to lure the gel baby on the pp by using the construct, shallow water, and a dagger somehow, but I have no idea how.

Tarstuff, the entrance: well… over 2000 moves to solve this. I spent 1 minute figuring out what to do, and over 1 hour to execute it. The puff manipulation (on the east and on the west side) is not really necessary to be honest, since the main point of the room is finding a good setup to destroy the inner blob of gel. I am sure there are many ways to do that (even using the new fuse primer) but boy was this tough. I had to try dozens of setups. One time I even solved it but died due to the huge number of babies created. I have mixed feelings about this room; on one side, I liked the concept; on the other side, the execution was a lot of trial and error.


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Dragon Fogel
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Okay, so your issue with Tarstuff Entrance is a specific thing that you probably didn't realize was possible.



Maybe I should try to fit that into the fluff level somehow. Making a new room would be a little bit against the spirit of this hold, but I could look through old rooms again to see if I can do something with one of them. Or maybe I can somehow find a good way to fit it into 1W.

Edit: Hint for Brain 1W:

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-18-2025 11:41 PM]

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Finished decorating all the levels. Aesthetics aren't my strong suit, but hopefully this is overall an improvement. A few rooms are slightly more cramped in the puzzle area, but it shouldn't make a huge difference.

Things I still hope to address somehow but haven't had ideas:
-Aumtlich 1W: Making this at least slightly more than "push the mirror around fast".
-Fluff 1W: Making the second part of the room trickier somehow. I tried making the second briar area all water to see how that worked out, and that was solvable but it was just a pain rather than adding anything interesting. Making it shallow water didn't improve the situation much.
-Tarstuff Entrance: Better preparing the player to figure out the key thing that makes this not painful. Currently all I've done is put in a vague hint while decorating.

I also have not had any testers complete Fegundos 1E, Fluff 1E, Guards 1W, Guards 1E, Giants 1W, or any rooms on the Brains level since 1W was fixed. So I would appreciate it if anyone can take a crack at those and possibly suggest ways to make them more approachable (and tell me if they think Giants 1W without the pressure plate is reasonable to make an actual scripted challenge).

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I liked the aesthetics and it does improve the overall appearance of the hold. Simple and effective.

Brains, the entrance: my first attempts were focused on dropping most of the trapdoors, and then I could not find a way to kill the construct as well. Since he had to fall with the bridge, he had to drop a trapdoor and then step on the bridge. I completely forgot that a bridge falls despite having a trapdoor NE, SE, SW or SE of it.

Brains 1S: After Fogel gave me a hint I understood what was needed, though it was still tough to set it up, but doable. I guess figuring out what to do is best here, and then understand how to execute it and how to use the trapdoors in the best way. Neat concept though.

Brain 1W: Again, after Fogel gave me a hint on how to start I had quite some fun trying to figure out a way to make this works. All these rooms so far are made up of two parts: figuring out what to do (which is the main problem for me with brained movement) and the execution, which is not too bad actually.

Guards 1E: this new version has a huge break. For the intended solution, I’m still trying to find the correct orientation for the decoy.


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Should be heading to sleep, but I wanted to post the new version first in case anyone wants to look at it.

Fixed the Guards 1E break mentioned above by adding some walls and fixed another break by replacing the seeding beacon with another guard.

Also, Red XIII said he tried his unpleasant solution to Tarstuff: Entrance because there was so much fluff, so I've shrunk the blob. Also added sword tokens on black doors to hopefully make cleanup easier.

In addition, I finally had an idea for making Aumtlich 1W trickier. I like this better than what I had, but the timing might be just a little too tight. I'd appreciate thoughts on that.

So now I'm just hoping to figure something out for Fluff 1W and to give Red XIII hints on the rooms he hasn't solved yet.

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Guards 1E: again, a two parts room. First I needed to figure out what to do and understand the guard behavior with oremites. Then, I had to find a good setup to make it work. However, it was not that hard since I had limited choices. Not a bad room. Since one of the main point of the room is the decoy placement (and orientation) I suggest a checkpoint on the decoy, such that it is easy to restore to try something else.

Guards 1W: the arrow beneath the stalwart is a really nice touch! I knew what to do, but now the execution is way more lenient and fun! It was nice figuring out how to use the mirror to help me in the manipulation! The hardest and more fiddly part, funnily, is escaping the chamber while keeping the guard off the entrance. Nice room.

Aumtlich 1W: it seems that I cannot step at row 3, so the checkpoint at 9,3 is kind of useless. Also, not really fixable, just worth noting, when the fuse is on and the aumtlich beam points at that, it’s impossible to see where the fuse currently is. As for the variant of the room, I liked that I needed to think how to block some aumtlich’s beam, but the mirror manipulation is easier now, so the timer is actually lenient, not tight, unless I did something unintended. If this is intended, I think the timer is fine.

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