Yur-Val
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 12-21-2009
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File: Punctuality Preciseness.hold (3.2 MB)
Downloaded 64 times.
License: Public Domain

Hi everyone! I began to develop a new hold and I'm interested in your opinion. I hope that it makes sense to continue

> fixed a bug in 3N1E (>twice)

> new introductory level "Dungeon Entrance"

> added checkpoints

> 4 new puzzles

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> Hold completed!

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[Last edited by Yur-Val at 06-22-2018 07:17 PM]

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1639
Registered: 09-04-2014
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Hi Yur-Val. Welcome back! It looks like you haven't posted in quite a while. Here are a couple of quick things you may want to looks at.

The title shows up as "Punctuality and Rreciseness" instead of "Punctuality and Preciseness"

It is best to mark holds as "anyone Edit" during testing so that the testers can jump around and check out changes as you make them.

There are no checkpoints. Please make sure to add some in locations where the player is likely to be. This is particularly frustrating in the First Level 3N1E where I have to do the same path at the beginning each time I start the room. A checkpoint should be at (21,20) at the very minimum. I would recommend adding checkpoints to all rooms.

The player can exit The Entrance without bothering to kill the roaches. Then upon coming back the player can kill the room without setting off the timer. you could prevent this by placing green doors on the exits.

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Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding:

Yur-Val
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 12-21-2009
IP: Logged

Thanks for your reply, Insoluble!

I took into account all your comments.

P.S. 3N1E wasn't brought to mind and I fixed it. Also four new puzzles have been completed.

Yur-Val
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 12-21-2009
IP: Logged

Good news! I returned with the completed hold. Today I clicked "Submit Hold" and I hope that testing will go well

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1639
Registered: 09-04-2014
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Hi again Yur-Val. Sorry if it is unclear, but the "Submit Hold" is actually supposed to be for after you feel the hold is finished with testing. Once submitted, the Hold Administrators will check to make sure there are no backtracking issues or copyright issues, but they won't check for unintended solutions or other playability issues that you may want to fix. I would encourage you to wait for at least one or two people to check out the four new rooms you added before submitting. If you've already submitted, no worries, you can let the Hold Administrators know that you'd like to wait a bit for testers to look at your new rooms.

____________________________
Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding:

Yur-Val
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 12-21-2009
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Well, I tested my hold and I'm sure that it's completely ready for publication

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4972
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: PP first 7 rooms Nuntar.demo (6.4 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

You should always wait for at least one tester, preferably two, to complete your hold before submitting it. Testers will find things you missed and can talk about how rooms feel from the player's point of view, i.e. without knowing the solutions in advance.

I've attached my demos so far. Haven't beaten 3N2E yet.

Check your hold and level titles. They seem to have gotten linebreaks into them somehow, so room coordinates don't display correctly.

Dungeon Entrance: "Underground" misspelled in level intro text.

P&P Entrance and 1N still have no checkpoints.

3N1E: Timer is extremely tight here. The linchpin of pushing the west queens east is good, but if the timer had one or two more moves of slack, the room would be solvable as soon as you get this linchpin instead of having to find a really tight move sequence in addition.

3N2E: Again extremely tight. Here there isn't a single linchpin, but there's still a large difference between an incorrect strategy that falls 5 moves short and a good strategy that falls 2 short. I would lengthen the timer by 2 to allow the latter to work without requiring such a precise move sequence.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 06-26-2018 05:09 PM]

Yur-Val
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 12-21-2009
IP: Logged

File: Punctuality Preciseness.hold (3.2 MB)
Downloaded 41 times.
License: Public Domain

Nutar, I changed some things according to your advice but I simply didn't understand certain points...

Dying Flutchman
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 406
Registered: 01-27-2017
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Hi Yur-Val,

I also played through this. Generally, some nice roach puzzles. There is always room for more roach slaying puzzles. And the timing element is pretty difficult here, so there is a real challenge.

Mainly, my comments are the same as Insoluble and Nuntar. A quick explanation:

1) It is really practical to make the hold "edit for everyone". You can set this option in the editor in the "Hold settings" menu at the top right.

This is important, because not all test-players will be able to finish all rooms. For instance: I am now stuck in 3N2E, just like Nuntar. This means that we can't go on testing, because we have no way to try out other rooms that come after this one...

2)It is also important that ALL ROOMS have at least a checkpoint. Difficult rooms (your rooms are generally pretty difficult to execute) should have a couple. This is important to allow a player to restore to every room. Sometimes, a player likes to restore to an earlier room to start looking for secrets for example. It helps to have at least a checkpoint then.

3) The rooms should be solved in the "perfect" solution each time, or else the exits are blocked. This is OK with me. Of course, that will make the rooms difficult, but I think that is your decision. However, this may be also frustrating for players. If you can't solve one room, you can not continue. Perhaps you could change the layout of the level to make sure that the player can reach several rooms. If you are then stuck in a particular room, you can always try other rooms first and perhaps try the difficult room again later.

4) The secret can be reached from the entrance ONLY if you do this the first time. If you come back, you can never enter the secret room again. I don't think this is good style. You force the player to restore to the entrance if they discover the secret too late.
I myself had this problem. I solved the entrance and moved North, for no particular reason. After that, I wanted to look East, but that was not possible anymore. Pretty frustrating for me.

But: nice hold so far. If you upload a new version that is "edit all", we can go on with the testing.

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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

Yur-Val
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 12-21-2009
IP: Logged

File: Punctuality Preciseness.hold (3.2 MB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

Okay, I publish a version where everyone can edit

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2358
Registered: 06-14-2005
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Why do you have room coordinates overwritten? That's frustrating, because I can't easily reference which room I'm talking about. Nevertheless, some comments:

The Entrance: Perhaps a way back to the west with a seeding beacon so that the secret can be accessed later? Just a QoL improvement.

In general, the timers are very tight. Just a heads-up, when people complain about magic move sequences, they're talking about this kind of stuff. This hold is interesting; it's also very demanding. The issue is that you've attempted to prevent any solution which is not your exact sequence of moves from clearing the room. There are a few rooms where the sequence need not be perfect, but most of them are exact.

I would recommend that you back off of almost all the timers by a move or two. We already reward perfection with the high scores; no need to require that same perfection of everyone who plays your hold.

I would also recommend that you leave it for a month, and then replay all of the rooms without looking at your demos. If you find it frustrating to beat then, just remember that it'll be harder for everyone else. It's a good way to check that your rooms are not cruel and unusual punishment.

That being said, I do enjoy these types of rooms and I thought that they were, in general, well built.