ErikH2000
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The best 3D translation I saw was Lemmings 3D. I was completely bored with Lemmings until I saw the 3D version, then it was fun all over again.

DROD3D has obvious shortcomings. I think it would have been better if TLK made a new set of rooms that could be played in the more interesting close-up views. The camera view that shows the entire room is not very good at showing contents of individual squares. The close-up camera view looks good, but doesn't give enough information to solve most rooms. If rooms were made that didn't require a complete view of them, then you could make something more enjoyable--a casual, hack-and-slash oriented game.

-Erik

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eytanz
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I think the problem with DROD3D was the implementation more than the principle. It's not that the interface was bad because it was 3D, it was bad because it wasn't properly tested, and/or thought out.

I agree with Erik that a set of new rooms suited for 3D would have been useful, but I don't think that's the main problem. Nor do I think there couldn't be a good, fully 3D version of DROD. I do think that it'd be more effort than it's worth, and I guess TLK decided the same at some point which is why they chose to release DROD3D in its current state.

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Strabo
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Bad Dog wrote:
Yeah, you are right. 3D is not always an improvement to gameplay; in fact, I've been disappointed more often than not by the trend of "3D-izing" well made games. Most of the time, as in DROD3D, it sounds pretty cool until you see the hassle it creates for gameplay. I'm just not down with the "3D is always better" crowd.

Some games that have been "improved" with 3D graphics that I don't think have gained anything might be:

Civ 4
Warcraft 3

Ack. I'm sure I could think of more if my brain wasn't tired right now. Oh well.

The Worms series was kind of like that as well.The 3d versions were generally regarded as worse, but in this case they did actually add certain things to the gameplay. Although they're not as good, they're worthy of existing as games in thier own right.

From what I've read about DROD-3D, the same isn't true. It's a solution in search of a problem, there was nothing wrong with the original 2D graphics, and nothing new was added by the 3D-ness. So it doesn't really need to exist.

And I have to disagree with you about Warcraft 3. The 3D graphics made it much prettier and allowed those cool in-game cutscenes.

Mattcrampy
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I wouldn't say pretty, so much, but the art style of the Warcraft games is very distinctive, so using polygons didn't take away what made the Warcraft games what they were. Plus, you know, in-engine cutscenes.

I'm not really a zealot for the presentation of games, and one of the biggest advantages to 3D was that it forced developers to think about how they'd possibly make their formulas work in 3D, and most every game genre got a big shot of innovation. One can certainly stay in 2D, so long as you don't retread the same old games while you do it - you need to prove that the 2D was made for a choice, not because you can't let go of the past. Otherwise it's pointless nostalgia, recycling the old in order to replace it, and that's not the way to write a history.

Edit: god, do I even read what I write any more?

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 10-01-2005 11:55 AM]

NeonElephant
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I'm not really a zealot for the presentation of games, and one of the biggest advantages to 3D was that it forced developers to think about how they'd possibly make their formulas work in 3D, and most every game genre got a big shot of innovation. One can certainly stay in 2D, so long as you don't retread the same old games while you do it - you need to prove that the 2D was made for a choice, not because you can't let go of the past. Otherwise it's pointless nostalgia, recycling the old in order to replace it, and that's not the way to write a history.

That's interesting ... my experience with 3D games (and, granted, I lean more towards the CRPG 'end' of the gaming spectrum) is that some developers didn't put much thought in to how 3D would affect their games, but added some 3D elements simply because it was the happening thing. This has gotten a lot less questionable recently as polygon counts have gone up, but in some less recent examples it seemed like good looks were sacrificed simply for the sake of making the game have 3D elements.

The usual disclaimer: this is not to say that all 3D games suffer from this -- I can't imagine that Devil May Cry would play nearly as well if it were sprite-based :-)

Mattcrampy
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Of course, I'm assuming that the 3D translation went well there. Plenty of people have hacked together the same game but with unnecessary 3D and it's that tendency we're seeing at the moment to avoid innovation.

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fratropea
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Drod3 does not appeal to to me for nothing!!!
It does not have that simplicity and the genius of DROD.
If DROD had been therefore, me of I would not be in love.

DROD3 is just ugly!!!

Oneiromancer
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Well...just make sure you note the difference between DROD 3.0, The City Beneath, which is in development, and DROD 3D, which is what this post is about. In case you aren't aware, 3D stands for "three-dimensional".

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 01-27-2006 11:15 PM]

fratropea
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This we had understood it!
But what you of it you make of a three-dimensional game if it does not get passionate to you?

Znirk
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fratropea wrote:
This we had understood it!
But what you of it you make of a three-dimensional game if it does not get passionate to you?

Again, DROD 3 (TCB) and DROD 3D are two different programs. DROD 3D took one of the older DRODs and added a 3D view. The Caravel people weren't directly involved, except that they had written the two-D version of DROD it was based on.

DROD 3 / The City Beneath is what Caravel is working on at the moment. I don't know anything specific about it, but given the comments made in this thread by people who do, I don't think that DROD 3 will be presented in 3D. In other words: Yes, the people who commented don't seem very excited about having DROD in 3D, but no, they aren't working on it either.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 01-28-2006 10:24 PM]

John259
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DROD3 <> DROD3D
CaravelNet (free forum) <> CaravelNet (payware online gaming)
KDD (free in AE) <> KDD2 (payware)
www.drod.net ~= www.caravelgames.com

I think I'm fairly clear on all those now thanks to kind people explaining them. But, and this isn't meant as a criticism - DROD is a wonderful game and I know that everyone's time is limited - but the DROD web sites are in very urgent and serious need of some disambiguation pages, in the same way as Wikipedia uses them, IMHO. Otherwise neebies are going to become so confused that they'll just give up and go away, which would be very sad. Please please please this is meant as a positive comment not criticism.

John

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gamer_extreme_101
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John259 wrote:
www.drod.net ~= www.caravelgames.com

I reall hate to confuse you even more, but it should be:

drod.caravelgames.com ~= www.caravelgames.com.

Yes, it's confusing, but it works. Kinda. Well, in a half-working kind of way, anyways.

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trick
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www.drod.net < drod.caravelgames.com

fratropea
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DROD IS A WONDERFUL GAME!!!

Caravel net I pray to you not to create a DROD
three-dimensional why I task would not have the fascination that has hour.

eytanz
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fratropea wrote:
DROD IS A WONDERFUL GAME!!!

Caravel net I pray to you not to create a DROD
three-dimensional why I task would not have the fascination that has hour.

Ok, seriously, if you don't know English, could you either A - find someone that does to translate for you, or B - post in a language you do speak and someone will probably volunteer. Please don't post gibberish. (I'm assuming you're not interested in the creation of 3D DROD, in which case, you'll probably be happy to know that Caravel is not working on one.)

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[Last edited by eytanz at 01-29-2006 12:43 AM]

John259
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
I reall hate to confuse you even more, but it should be:

drod.caravelgames.com ~= www.caravelgames.com.

Yes, it's confusing, but it works. Kinda. Well, in a half-working kind of way, anyways.

Thanks, I didn't know about that, yet another DROD URL to bookmark! But perhaps it should be:
http:drod.caravelgames.com ==> http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewsitepage.php?id=90294

John

____________________________
2006 A DROD Odyssey: "Open the pod bay doors Halph" - "Not possible!"

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[Last edited by John259 at 01-29-2006 07:20 AM]

fratropea
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EYTANZ WROTE:

Ok, seriously, if you don't know English, could you either A - find someone that does to translate for you, or B - post in a language you do speak and someone will probably volunteer. Please don't post gibberish. (I'm assuming you're not interested in the creation of 3D DROD, in which case, you'll probably be happy to know that Caravel is not working on one.)

I do not know English!!!
I make translate what I write in Italian from a program that calls ALTAVISTA.
Perhaps the translation is not good...
Considering neither you know English you can advise some better program to me!
But what it is important is that we have been understood... does not count more this?

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[Last edited by fratropea at 01-29-2006 11:44 AM]

Doom
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I have to agree with Eytanz.

Internet translators may be useful sometimes, but sometimes they create so weird stuff that it's very hard, if not impossible to understand what you're meaning. The same goes for translating in reverse.

Caravel net I pray to you not to create a DROD
three-dimensional why I task would not have the fascination that has hour.

To be honest, I found it extremely hard to understand what the second part of this post means. In addition, it was already said 2 times before that post, that Caravel is NOT making a 3D version of DROD. Another proof that translators aren't always that reliable. I made a test english-italy-english conversion of Oneiromances's post above and got something that could've been easily understood as TCB and DROD3D being the same thing...

To avoid further misunderstandings, I recommend using Eytanz's advice. It's not a sin to post in other languages. Actually, Erik has encouraged people to do so here.

eytanz
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fratropea wrote:
EYTANZ WROTE:

Ok, seriously, if you don't know English, could you either A - find someone that does to translate for you, or B - post in a language you do speak and someone will probably volunteer. Please don't post gibberish. (I'm assuming you're not interested in the creation of 3D DROD, in which case, you'll probably be happy to know that Caravel is not working on one.)

I do not know English!!!
I make translate what I write in Italian from a program that calls ALTAVISTA.
Perhaps the translation is not good...
Considering neither you know English you can advise some better program to me!
But what it is important is that we have been understood... does not count more this?
The problem was that I didn't understand. If I did understand, I wouldn't care whether you know English or not. I want to understand you, so I think you need to find a better way to post.

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Banjooie
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Well, I can translate 'really bad english' into readable, I use Battle.net. So I can probably carry on from where he leaves off?

fratropea
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eytanz wrote:

fratropea wrote:
EYTANZ WROTE:

Ok, seriously, if you don't know English, could you either A - find someone that does to translate for you, or B - post in a language you do speak and someone will probably volunteer. Please don't post gibberish. (I'm assuming you're not interested in the creation of 3D DROD, in which case, you'll probably be happy to know that Caravel is not working on one.)

I do not know English!!!
I make translate what I write in Italian from a program that calls ALTAVISTA.
Perhaps the translation is not good...
Considering neither you know English you can advise some better program to me!
But what it is important is that we have been understood... does not count more this?

The problem was that I didn't understand. If I did understand, I wouldn't care whether you know English or not. I want to understand you, so I think you need to find a better way to post.

Va bene ti scrivo in italiano... se così mi capisci meglio...
Però penso che in questo modo sarò discriminato.
Un conto è leggere una cosa scritta in inglese male, ma in fondo
capire qualcosa.
Ma leggere qualcosa di cui non capisci niente e ti annoi farti fare la traduzione, vuol dire che a me non risponderà più nessuno (e questo sarebbe antipatico soprattutto per le soluzioni del gioco).

AlefBet
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Maybe it would be best if you post both the original Italian and the AltaVista translation. That way, if someone who knows Italian comes along, they can post a manual translation (and receive a mod point or two ), but if not, the gist of the post is still there and readable.

Forse sarebbe meglio se inviate sia la traduzione originale del AltaVista che italiana. Quel senso, se qualcuno che conosca l'italiano viene avanti, possono inviare una traduzione manuale (e ricevere un punto o due del MOD ), ma se non, il gist dell'alberino è ancora là e leggibile.

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