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Ezlo
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
Oracle of Time? Do you mean the OCARINA of Time? Or the Oracles series which had Oracle of Seasons, and Oracle of Ages?
12-03-2006 at 05:30 PM
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tokyokid
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
Whoops-combined two games in one name. I mean The Oracle of Seasons.
12-03-2006 at 06:13 PM
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Ezlo
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
Oracle of Seasons was actually the first Zelda I ever played, and I was almost certain that The Twilight King was going to be some sort of relative of Onox, they look a lot alike. Onox is my favorite not Ganondorf villian. Much better than Vivian or the Vaati guy.
12-03-2006 at 07:07 PM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
I guess I was going just in terms of gameplay, which is a strong bias of mine. In that I prefer gameplay to everything else.

But I don't think the music is really comparable, anyway (Game boy v. Wii? If there is a comparison available, something is wrong with the Wii music.)

And I'd say the atmosphere of TP can be split into two parts--boss form 1&2 and boss form 3&4. The atmosphere of Link's Awakening beats the first, and loses to the second.

But LA wins hands down in terms of gameplay, IMO. You pretty much have to use everything in your arsenal to beat the boss, as opposed to relying (pretty much) on the master sword. It's actually more like the Zant fight, but harder and less annoying. And no clues as to what to use.

I think I realized one of the biggest things I missed about this game. Link isn't a hero of anything. In Ocarina, he was the Hero of Time. In WW, he was Hero of Winds. He wasn't the hero of Twilight or anything here.

And the light spirits were all the same...as with the Sages. One of the cooler things about Ocarina was that each sage had a different personality, and you grew to like them all. I felt nothing for these sages, and nothing for the light spirits. I wanted some distinctness in speech!

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12-03-2006 at 07:44 PM
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Ezlo
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
I was sure from the moment I heard of Link turning into a wolf it was going to be something like Hero of the Wild. But yeah, no title.
12-03-2006 at 08:26 PM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
Note: This contains spoilers about Ocarina and Wind Waker as well.

Is it just me...or does Zelda, the bearer of the Triforce of Wisdom, not seem very wise?
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Maybe it's that she just instigates all of Link's problems, and doesn't really seem to do anything to help out with them.

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For the TP Zelda though...she's probably the worst Zelda. "I have a kingdom...now I don't." It's not much of a decision between "I lose power" and "everybody dies, and I lose power anyway." And she tries to recoup in the final battle...but she's totally unoriginal, and not that good.

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12-13-2006 at 04:04 AM
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Ezlo
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12-13-2006 at 02:36 PM
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Ezlo
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Yay!!! I found Octrocks! I was worried that there wasn't any. They are in a secret grotto surrounded by five clumps of grass in the shape of a circle in Lake Hylia.
12-17-2006 at 03:58 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (+1)  
Finally beat in just over 36 hours.

Now, my major thought was that it seemed to be missing something large, triangular, and yellow. It's the signature of the series, and they didn't have to do much to make it work - all they needed to do was shuffle around the ending cutscene, so that Zelda ran up to Link, and then all three palms start glowing, and we all know the rest. In fact, I'm surprised that the three were in such close proximity as Ganondorf died that it didn't form.

Oh, and Zex, I think that she DID pass Midna the Triforce of Wisdom. Think about it, immediately after, Midna comes to the realization that the light realm is worth something. I don't think it was just Zelda's act that made her come to that realization. And of course Ganondorf would have kept her - as a trophy. Then shortly after the Ganon fight, Midna glows a golden light that flows into Zelda. That was the Triforce returning to Zelda.

Oh, and Zex, the Spinner was also used in Hyrule Castle. But I agree, it was a great item and it would have been nice to see it more. Now to go for 100%! When I have more time, I'll pick apart those first three posts and look at them. I finished without either magic armor or increased bomb capacity (I did have all the bags though). It would have been good to have a boss fight where you actually had to use every item - Zant was nice but too short. He should have done every boss.

Oh, and I don't see how you can consider the Dominion Rod a portable mimic maker. It just activates statues (and, like all the items past the Master Sword, was underused).
12-24-2006 at 10:38 PM
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
Well, the statues do move the same way Link does, so they're mimics in that sense.

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12-25-2006 at 12:14 AM
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zex20913
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Oh, and Zex, I think that she DID pass Midna the Triforce of Wisdom.

I think my intention was to say that Midna should have had the ToW all along. Zelda should not have had it, and this would have been a welcome and surprising plot twist, as we're all expecting Zelda to have it. I sort of guessed that Zelda had passed the ToW...but there wasn't a real reason to do so. Yes, this would have changed some plot, but it was only decent to begin with.

I also would have liked the Triforce to NOT be destined...that it should be earned, not inherent.

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12-25-2006 at 03:01 AM
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Timo006
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
zex20913 wrote:
I also would have liked the Triforce to NOT be destined...that it should be earned, not inherent.

If it should be EARNED, you can ask yourself why Ganon got the triforce of power ;).

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12-25-2006 at 09:16 PM
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Ezlo
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So the others can earn it. :D
12-25-2006 at 10:11 PM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
He earned a triforce piece in Ocarina when he touched the Triforce. He kept it for Wind Waker. And in the nebulous storyline...in TP, he apparently keeps it from Ocarina, but dies, not allowing him to come back for WW...

I think I'm just going to say that every Zelda game takes place in a separate universe, or far enough separated in time (Ocarina, WW) that it doesn't really matter. Because there are quite a few inconsistencies (sp?) if one tries to mesh them all together into any form of coherence.

But back on topic, touching the Triforce earns a piece. Which is determined by the mindset/heart of the toucher.

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12-26-2006 at 04:26 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
The prevalent theory these days is that Ocarina introduced a time-related paradox in its ending, so the games take place in one timeline or the other depending on whether Ganon was killed by Link or whether Ganondorf was dealt with by the King. For instance, the Ganondorf timeline seems to be the one in which Ganondorf was dealt with early and so has time to brood (and, notably, doesn't hold the Triforce), while Wind Waker is usually thought to be in the Ganon timeline as the Hero of Time changes the future by going back in time and having Ganondorf dealt with, and Wind Waker implies that the Hero of Time doesn't appear.

Minish Cap is usually believed to be the very first in the series.

I don't know how this fits in with TP yet, as I'm only up to the Temple of Time and am avoiding anything that could possibly be a spoiler. Ten bucks it's either in the Ganon timeline or it breaks the theory, though.

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12-29-2006 at 01:11 PM
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Ezlo
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (+1)  
Here's a nice timeline theroy written by TSA:

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12-29-2006 at 02:00 PM
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coppro
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
Well done, except:

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Also, I have been playing LoZ, and I realized that what TP lacks is really difficulty. It's too easy. Sure there are puzzles, but I just didn't die enough.

[Last edited by coppro at 01-01-2007 01:26 AM]
01-01-2007 at 01:25 AM
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Ezlo
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That just flat out doesn't make sense. What about Ocarina and Majora's Mask? The original game and Adventure of Link? Wind Waker and the soon to be released Phantom Hourglass? All those pairs have the same Link in them.
01-01-2007 at 03:41 AM
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Maurog
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (0)  
It's easier if you don't think of Link as a real person. He's sort of like a messiah - whenever princesses become kidnapped and evil menaces the land, a savior is born. Hence the "boy of prophecy" references all over, and not remembering any previous "lives" and so on. It's not the same Link...

Of course I also have this theory he is an immortal being that loses his memory whenever he dies, but that would suck as a plotline ;)

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01-01-2007 at 04:58 AM
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Mattcrampy
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There's a few different Links and Zeldas. I understand the sets are:

Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask
Legend of Zelda/Link's Adventure
Link to the Past/Link's Awakening (this one's dubious, and they could be different Links)
Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons
Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass
Twilight Princess
Minish Cap

While Link's called Link just for convenience's sake, and the green costume is traditional or coincidental, the Zeldas are deliberately all named the same, as homage to the Princess Zelda that was cursed in the ancient past of Hyrule and kept in the North Palace outside of Hyrule (and who is almost certainly killed during the flooding preceding Wind Waker).

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01-01-2007 at 06:09 AM
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coppro
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IIRC, the quote came from a magazine prior to WW release. So, Phantom Hourglass was probably not even on the horizon. As for OoT and MM, it makes sense for them to be the same link, but it doesn't actually have to be. I don't know enough about Link's Adventure to say whether it's the same Link as the original, but the original is extremely vague on the plotline (so far all that I've seen is that one page in the instruction manual that says you need to go find the 8 pieces of the Triforce and fight Ganon on Death Mountain. No mention of Zelda outside the title yet). Maybe it's because I'm just too young to have played the oldies.
01-01-2007 at 06:27 AM
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I think before Wind Waker they had confirmed that it's a different Link every second game. So the Link in Link's Adventure is the same Link as the Link in Legend of Zelda.

I'm pretty sure that the mask salesman in Majora's Mask recognises you from Ocarina, which would establish the link between the two.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 01-01-2007 04:04 PM : Brain freeze]
01-01-2007 at 08:15 AM
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zex20913
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I'd thought that Link's Awakening fell between the Adventure of Link and the Oracle games. I could be totally wrong though--I'm not up on my 'twixt game lore.

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01-01-2007 at 03:03 PM
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Ezlo
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I always thought it came after the Oracle games. Link was going away on a ship after those games if I remember correctly. Maybe Awakening came about while he was coming home.

OOOH! IDEA!! Maybe Link's Awakening came after Wind Waker! :fun
01-01-2007 at 03:45 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I don't know where Link's Awakening falls, although as I mentioned I understand it's the same Link as Link to the Past, only grown up. If it isn't, it doesn't really matter where it falls as it has no bearing on the overall plot.

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01-01-2007 at 04:05 PM
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Ezlo wrote:
I always thought it came after the Oracle games. Link was going away on a ship after those games if I remember correctly. Maybe Awakening came about while he was coming home.

OOOH! IDEA!! Maybe Link's Awakening came after Wind Waker! :fun

This is actually impossible, in the manual of Link's Awakening it is said that Link, after beating Ganon, left Hyrule but that a lot of people were afraid of a kind of revenge from Ganon. In Wind Waker, nobody knows anything about Ganon.

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01-01-2007 at 06:22 PM
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Ezlo
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I know, I was joking. Hence the "I'm being stupid." smiley. :P
01-01-2007 at 06:37 PM
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While I enjoyed each of the 45 hours I put into Twilight Princess for the Nintendo Gamecube Interactive Video Entertainment Console Machine, the game seemed to oddly ignore the advancements made to the series since Ocarina of Time. Majora's Mask's use of different forms for the protagonist worked wonderfully, with all sorts of nice puzzles utilizing every skill that each form could perform, so it was weird when, towards the end of the game, the wolf became almost solely a liability, when it had been so useful towards the beginning. Windwaker's flexible combat system, where one could use the dropped weapons of enemies, was wonderful and fun, and I can't understand why they would drop that feature, as well as separate Drop and Throw buttons, when the game supposedly derives from the same engine. The new combat moves were a nice addition as a replacement for the parry move, but I found them nowhere near as reliable or fun as Windwaker's combat renovations. Except Mortal Draw. That one was excellent. It made battles feel more like Samurai duels, which is usually a good thing.

In terms of narrative, I found myself somewhat annoyed with this presentation of Link, as he manages to go through the game without overcoming any personal adversity. Everybody likes him and believes that he is a hero. No one has any comtempt for him, except for that one little kid, and maybe the player. It didn't seem that he did anything to become a hero. Sure, he faces great dangers in the various castles and dungeons, but after the vulnerable and expressive Link in Windwaker and the helpful and courteous Link trapped in an existential nightmare in Majora's Mask, this Link, the main character in a Nordic Saga, seemed incredibly dry and flat. And I resented him. He was not a hero I could really respect because he had no tangible reasons for doing anything. It seems like he is just staving off boredom, which is not how I want to feel when playing a video game, even if that is what I am doing.

These are my primary complaints, other than the formulaic-feeling boss battles that lasted too short a time. Windwaker and Majora's Mask remain the best in the series for me, and I hope that Nintendo comes back to making stark, sad games with pretty cartoony graphics and a Kurosawan, Humanist edge.
01-21-2007 at 08:35 PM
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icon Re: Zelda: TP Reactions--WITH SPOILERS. ONLY WARNING. (+1)  
Okay, my turn. I just beat Twilight Princess tonight, just over 30 hours, only 17 hearts, somewhere in the 30's in the Cave of Ordeals (stupid pair of armor knights which were much easier in the Castle), 40-something Poes, the magic armor, and less than half the bugs. So yeah, not much extra stuff...I mean, I kept trying to find things, but since it's so easy to max out your money and the game really isn't that hard, I didn't feel like I really had to. I never did get the 4th bottle either...I got both quivers easily but no bomb bags.

I really enjoyed pretty much every dungeon and boss battle. The big spider in the Temple of Time was one of my favorites just for atmosphere, and the spinner one for innovativeness. I actually wasn't too into the other spinner puzzles in that dungeon, but I loved the boss battle. I also loved the boss of the City in the Sky, that was very epic.

Overall I loved the aiming system with the Wiimote, but I was not enamored of the sword-swinging. It was a bit too sensitive at times, especially during the first part of the very last battle...it took me forever to get into the rhythm of hitting the light spheres--a staple of any Zelda game, of course, but I just had so much trouble in this one because of the control scheme. I also had trouble figuring out the Beast Ganon because I actually tried using the wolf early on and I saw the A button prompt but I couldn't get it to work. The last two forms were much easier and I think this is the first Zelda game where I didn't die during my first time fighting the end boss. Well, maybe not the GBA ones, but the normal console ones. Especially the Adventure of Link one...that guy sucked.

Anyway, I enjoyed the game very much and it was totally worth getting the Wii for, even though I didn't like the swordplay too much...the enhanced graphics with the component video cable and the full widescreen support meant that it actually looked good on my new big TV compared to how the Gamecube one would have looked. I won't be playing it again for a while I think, but if I do I think I will actually play through the whole thing (unlike Wind Waker, which I tried to play again with the GBA attachment but I quit early because I just didn't want to deal with the map/triforce search at the end).

Game on,

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 02-07-2007 03:17 AM]
02-07-2007 at 03:11 AM
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Woo Hoo! First major Sequence Break found!


Master Sword before setting foot in a single dungeon.

02-15-2007 at 11:13 PM
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