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Django
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icon Re: The Truthbringers (0)  
Ok! I have a little time today, so I can start to consider how to begin thinking about pondering my various intricate schemes for securing First Place in this little logic exercise.

Naturally, I've solved much larger puzzles after a mere cursory scan of the clues. <cough> But what's this about having to deal with illogical humans just to amass the clues? Madness, indeed!

A small horde of info-exchange offers languish in my PM box. None of the petitioners having been formally introduced to me, I can hardly respond.

No matter. I have run out of free time for this month. I'll revisit the issue in a fortnight or five.

Cheers,
- Django

11-10-2005 at 04:03 PM
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zex20913
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Hate to break it to you...but first place has already been gobbled up.

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Click here to view the secret text

11-10-2005 at 04:16 PM
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Banjooie
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Yes, you must be within the endpoints of the barrier to have the two caves be "opposite". Think of the perpendicular line as going through the barrier.

Game on,

WAit, you had to be within the endpoints?

Argh, that made the puzzle doable. Alas, I have no time to do it now.
11-10-2005 at 04:44 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon The Truthbringers - Final Results (0)  
Holy crudmonkeys! The contest is over!

At first I thought it would drag on until the end of the month and then after the first day, I thought it would take a week or so to sort out winners. Nope--it's done right now! I have three correct answers.

First place goes to Krishh, who quietly and quickly worked out the puzzle avoiding melodramatics. Krishh, pick something out of the Prize Pile, and you get a hundred rank points. Note that if you choose Dr. Lunatic, Kevin has already picked that prize, and I don't know yet if Mike Hommel will donate a second copy of one of his games.

Around 1AM last night in Seattle, I got Watcher's correct guess. Then this morning came Leroy00's, which by the way, was very efficiently comprised. Those guys get 50 and 25 rank points apiece.

Then for the rookies... oh, I'll come back to that. It takes some cross-referencing work, and I need to spend time on other things today.

Where do we go from here? I am assuming that the appeal of interacting with others to get clues is almost completely gone. With the winners declared, it's hard to find the motivation. Plus, many people have all the clues now, and the contest latecomers and other have-nots will have a difficult, or at least uninteresting, time collecting clues from unmotivated providers.

So I'm going to dump all the clues in a secret tag below. If you prefer to work out the clues on your own, you can still do that. I'm also attaching the answer key that Schik came up with. Don't look at the attachment if you want to work out the solution yourself!

All the clues...
Click here to view the secret text


I hope everyone, or at least 82%, enjoyed the contest!

-Erik

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11-10-2005 at 08:11 PM
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zaubberer
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i enjoyed this contest very much! even if i not solved the puzzle there's some things to note:

i think i traded not very much, but i got all clues without of two.
so it seems that also truthbringer who are not natural born gossips ;) are able to get the right informations! if they even trade with the right people! (special thnx at this point to Chalks, Watcher, Maurog, zex20913, leroy00 and last but not least: Nillo!; thnx too: robin, kie, KevG and techant)

the one and only i figured out who were sending false clues to me
TripleM, but i don't know the guy who made them.
(may be too that the list from erik isn't complete?)
interesting thing for me is that three of us found the right solution. great work!

the last thing about this contest: i think i will sometimes go back to figure it out. it is really funny made and it's better than the usually printed riddles in this form in some magazines. and: it's a part of the d.r.o.d.-world.

'till the next contest!

zaubberer, (formerly) truthbringer of the talwart captain
:wizard

[Last edited by zaubberer at 11-10-2005 10:05 PM : ...to correct something important!!!]
11-10-2005 at 09:50 PM
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TripleM
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False clues? Huh? I never gave a false clue throughout the entire thing.. which clue did you think was false?

Edit - in fact, looking at my PMs, I never even gave you any of my clues. Maybe someone else passed them on to you, with some deliberate mistakes?

[Last edited by TripleM at 11-10-2005 09:58 PM]
11-10-2005 at 09:54 PM
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zaubberer
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there two:
72nd Archivist works in a building south of where the 10th Secretary works.
Fifth Secretary works in the same building where 75th Archivist works.

i think i have to correct my last posting. that i've got them from you doesn't mean that you made them! in fact you asked me if i could consolidate them.

sorry!

zaubberer
:wizard
11-10-2005 at 10:01 PM
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TripleM
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Yeah, thats more like it :P I thought they were lies myself (even said something like that in the PM), just wanted to know if anybody else could confirm they weren't.
11-10-2005 at 10:03 PM
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schep
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Gah. I had correctly sorted through all the clues last night, and came very close to getting a solution. Then I made a visual error on my solving chart, and concluded there must be one more clue that would distinguish between two possibilities. I even went on a panicked attempt over the last 24 hours to find that clue. This whole time I've had a piece of paper in front of me that would (and did just now) let me get it exactly right in about five pencil strokes. About now I'd been planning to pick one possibility at random and submit that; if I'd written out a guess for submission I certainly would have noticed my mistake.

Anyway, congrats to the winners!

Also also, I'm all for having this Contests forum, but way to confuse me when I came and refreshed General and couldn't see any Truthbringer stuff.

11-10-2005 at 10:36 PM
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Watcher
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Disjointed ramblings regarding this contest:

Somehow, I managed never to be lied to. The only false clue I ever received was one made up by eytanz, which zex20913 passed on to me as second-hand information. This was probably partly due to my early strategy: I decided that newcomers to the forum were more likely to be trustworthy, since they might otherwise risk being shunned by the regulars. So I went through the list of participants, looking for people with less than 100 rank points, and sending them offers of clue swaps. Along with accepting the offers other people sent me, this netted about 25 clues.

When eytanz made his offer, I accepted, but decided to keep looking for clues on my own as well. I eventually got up to 40 clues, and started filling in the map. I was actually quite lucky to finish. When Nillo gave up, I asked for his clues. They contained three new ones, including one that seemed suspicious to me, as it contradicted an assumption I'd made earlier (I knew it might be wrong, but nevertheless...). However, I was able to verify the clue thanks to Krishh's offer of help. I erased a few mistakes and continued filling in. This got me a complete map which fit with every one of the 43 clues I had, so I sent it off to Erik.

I think a big part of the problem with the contest was that partial solving was very impractical, due to the cryptic nature of the clues. I've got one note on my paper that says, in essence, this:
(Note: if you want to solve the puzzle yourself, don't look at this.)
Click here to view the secret text

Yeah.

In fact, it wasn't until Nillo sent me his clues that I managed to place more than one barrier with certainty. I had 40 correct clues - I should've gotten somewhere with that, but I didn't due to needing one essential clue. Making some of the clues more directly informative would probably be a good idea.

Another problem was that hiding information was practically impossible. Every one of my five clues are already known to four other people, and I have no way to find out who. What am I going to do? I'm going to trade away the clues before other people do so. Giving each player a clue that is known only to them might make the game last longer.

Also, Erik said that Oneiromancer, given all the clues, managed to solve this in about three and a half hours. That's too short a time. I'd say the puzzle should be a good deal bigger, but divided into a sort of sub-puzzles, which can be solved with only a subset of the clues. Then, you might give each player four clues relating to a certain sub-puzzle, and two relating to the main puzzle, and tell them which players have information on the same sub-puzzle. This would also set up a starting point for alliances, which might be useful. Completing sub-puzzles would of course yield a good number of points according to some sort of scoring system. (I've got a number of ideas regarding this, but I don't think I'll be writing them down unless someone really wants to hear about it.)

On the whole, though, it was a really good idea. With some tweaks, you could very well run a similar contest some time next year.

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11-10-2005 at 10:49 PM
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Mouse
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From my post requesting clues from people for the fun of solving this I managed to get ALL of the clues.

I got PM's from 3 people; & snagged Znirk's from the Forum.

Now I'm off to find posts by the three (and Znirk) to give them Mod points.


11-10-2005 at 10:57 PM
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eytanz
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So, my deal didn't amount to much. That was mainly because I was honest with my terms - I promised not to share information I got from it, which I didn't. Had I done so, I would have had an easier time figuring out which clues are false. As a side note, I was also fully planning to honor my original claims, since I really was more interested in just getting as much information as possible.

As far as that went, it worked. I had 11 different players send me all their clues. Some clearly sent me only some of their clues, but I had enough overlap to get all the clues. Unfortunately, I also got 11 false clues, 9 of which I identified as false. I had about 5 clues of which I knew at least one must be false (2 were), but I didn't know which and I ran out of spare time to try all the permutations. One of the two false clues I didn't catch may have been deliberately seeded to sabotage my deal, but I doubt it.

I made up one fake clue, which was pretty popular early on (I got it from several people), but people figured it out pretty quickly. Until I actually have time to solve the puzzle (maybe over the weekend), I'm not even sure it's really false.



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I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 11-11-2005 06:36 AM]
11-11-2005 at 06:35 AM
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leroy00
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I liked the contest, it's just that people did a lot of sharing and practically no politicking. I was part of a group that wanted to spread false clues with cross-confirmation by each of us to spread mayhem, but before we even got around to it, I had almost all the clues thrown in my lap. I guess one or two clues could have slowed the process some, but we never had a chance to find out a good lie. In the end, I was missing a clue to distinguish between two secretaries and just put in a guess. A 50% chance of getting it right is pretty dreary after all that work, but time was an issue, and I was sure someone in the later time zones would come up with the answers while I slept, so I took a stab and got lucky. I had a really rough time with the start, because I missed out on the public clues, but that is my own fault, and Eytan was sneaky enough not to include them in his table, which I used. (Thanks a lot, Eytan. And thanks for nothing for grabbing my clues without responding to me. So we're even. :P ) I know, I know, rtfm.

One thing- I think major clarifications (i.e. the ones about tunnels and barriers) should be included in the official opening post at the top of the thread. It took me a long time to read the clues correctly wrt tunnels and caves. It is hard to keep up with all the relevant posts, especially when time is such an issue as with this contest.

Facit: Great contest, I live this kind of puzzle and wonder how you (Erik) arrived at good clues that weren't too obvious. Maybe the guy from Watson's Map let you use his algorithm in exchange for a plug of his game. ;) I'll really have to have a look at it, though. Thanks for the great contest!

-leroy

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-Jimi Hendrix, "The Wind Cries Mary"
11-11-2005 at 08:05 AM
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leroy00
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icon Stop the press! (+1)  
Wait, the contest isn't over and all solutions to date are wrong! I just discovered the original map found in a trash pile in the back of the Glim Chamber. It reveals a valuable piece of information which was (intentionally?) left off of Erik's copy of the map.

-leroy

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-Jimi Hendrix, "The Wind Cries Mary"
11-11-2005 at 08:26 AM
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KevG
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Near as I can tell, the straightforward "Here are my original clues, I'd appreciate it if you sent me yours" approach was the most effective way of gathering information. I netted all 43 real clues and Maurog's false clue. By the time I announced my "NEW OFFER" I already had all the information I needed to have solved it; it's just unfortunate for me that I didn't realise it. (In my defense, lack of time also played a part here.)

The main problem with political alliances and sharing other people's info was that it was too easy to get information directly from the source. A few people sent me info that they had heard from others; with the exception of Eytan, it was always someone I'd already got info from. And the best thing about ignoring second hand info is that I avoided most of the false clues floating around.

In some part, my relatively unknown name may have helped me out; I made a point of using it when appealing to Robobob. One player, who shall remain nameless, almost certainly lied to a third person, but he sent me correct clues. Of course, I have no idea how many people didn't really send me their own clues. But, only one person actually lied to me.
11-11-2005 at 08:47 AM
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Mattcrampy
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I was planning to blackmail liars into sharing clues but in the end it was way too late by the time I spotted one. I was also planning to run Matchmaker, which no-one went for (I wonder why?) and use the information gathered there about what people said they knew to bolster my blackmail list.

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11-11-2005 at 10:22 AM
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eytanz
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leroy00 wrote:
(Thanks a lot, Eytan. And thanks for nothing for grabbing my clues without responding to me. So we're even. :P )

I wasn't sure what I was supposed to respond to you with - I took your email as an entry to my deal, because of its title, which meant that you don't get anything until I solve the puzzle, which I never did...



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11-11-2005 at 01:47 PM
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leroy00
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eytanz wrote:
I wasn't sure what I was supposed to respond to you with - I took your email as an entry to my deal, because of its title, which meant that you don't get anything until I solve the puzzle, which I never did...
Yeah, it was kind of a joke. A bit of self-irony, since I bought into your bluff and was impatiently waiting on you to reveal the clue I was missing and panicked with my incomplete answer when I found out that yet another person had already solved the puzzle. Besides, all is fair in love and war....

-leroy

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11-11-2005 at 01:57 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Hmm... very short one. We are still in the first third of November and its already over... :unsure. What about a poll asking for the best trader ?
11-11-2005 at 03:54 PM
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eytanz
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leroy00 wrote:
Eytan was sneaky enough not to include them in his table.
-leroy

By the way, replace "sneaky" with "lazy" and you'd get a lot closer to understanding the depth of my personality.

After all, the reasoning behind my infamous deal was "all this information trading is too much work, how can I get a bunch of people to send me a lot of clues without having to send anything back more than once?" :)

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11-11-2005 at 10:54 PM
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ErikH2000
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Rookies for this contest were:

Brainy
forrestfire
Jatopian
Jolima
kie
leroy00
robin
Sarngate
Swivel
zZah

Hey, a rookie got 2nd place! :thumbsup

To be practical, I'm considering someone to be a participant if they finished the qualifying puzzle and declared themself as an entrant. I'll wait a day or so for someone to correct me on the above names, then award rank points to everyone that gets 'em.

-Erik

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dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 11-12-2005 09:42 PM]
11-11-2005 at 11:50 PM
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robin
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I loved the contest!!! :thumbsup
I specially loved the political part,
so I forgot starting to solve the puzzle.
And when I wanted to I had so messed up things,
that had to re-organize stuff.
(I'm just gonna use the clue list that Erik gave)
But everything I passed on to somebody,
I gave it like I got it.

So nice contest, I can't wait for the next one. :thumbsup

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11-12-2005 at 01:55 PM
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kie
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You forgot me from the rookie list, Erik :(

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cheers, kie
11-12-2005 at 08:58 PM
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ErikH2000
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Doh! Added you in.

-Erik

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11-12-2005 at 09:42 PM
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techant
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Well I just got back into town and found the contest was over. I thought it might be but just ran out of time.

I had a great time with this and would want to do it again sometime. My only problem was I kept reading a reference to a map but never found one. I was confused about it but was so busy collecting clues I figured I get to it later. When I saw the map with the correct answers and leroy00's link for a map I realised there was a real one to fill-in. I may be dense :blush so next time can we make the map more obovious.

Thanks for all the hard work everyone put in to make this so fun. If you didn't get a PM back from me it was cuz I was out of town. Also, I never lied :D

____________________________
DROD RPG Released!! You must try it out it is Great!!
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11-13-2005 at 10:34 PM
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Banjooie
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My strategy was as follows, and apparently screwed a bunch of other people up.

I figured that if I traded 10 for 5, people would be more truthful. After all, they're getting the advantage, and since I was tagging names to it, anyone who lied would quickly be found out.

This, unfortunately, was its own undoing. 10 for 5 was so popular...that, well, everyone was sending me the same lies that everyone else was. I amassed a bunch of information, but no concievable way to tell who was lying and who wasn't.

What's more, I couldn't even begin on the puzzle, so. Heh.
11-13-2005 at 11:25 PM
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ErikH2000
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Rank points have been awarded!

-Erik

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11-14-2005 at 04:08 AM
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HopelessAmateur
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My strategy was:
1. Go to London on business for five days thus removing myself from internet-connectivity
2. Get back to work and respond to the PMs in my inbox
3. Discover the contest is over.

Gah!
11-14-2005 at 09:30 AM
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ErikH2000
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Oh, one thing I forgot to mention...

The puzzle I used was from Watson's Map by Everett Kaser. It was #23791 of the registered version under the "10" difficulty button. I rotated the puzzle 90 degrees to obfuscate it a little in case anyone decided to walk through puzzles looking for a match. I doubt that would have been an effective way to find the solution anyhow.

And I don't know if I already mentioned it, but the Dinner Puzzle was puzzle #1 under difficult "1" from Dinner with Moriarty, also by Kaser. I'm not sure if it was Everett Kaser that first came up with the ideal to make these visual representations of classic word puzzles, but his games are really ingenious. I like seeing how he began with Sherlock and developed and refined the basic deductive challenge into the more complex Watson's Map.

-Erik

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11-27-2005 at 07:55 PM
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Oneiromancer
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I also heartily recommend Watson's Map. I registered my copy and haven't been regretting it at all. :) It really blows Sherlock and Moriarty out of the water...I really haven't had much incentive to play those after playing WM.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
11-28-2005 at 10:58 PM
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