schep
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This isn't your typical monster-filled hold. It's a collection of brainy puzzles in DROD form, in the tradition of VortexSurfer's Palace of Puzzles projects.

Version 1.32 is now available at the Holds board.


[Edited by schep at Local Time:05-31-2005 at 10:23 PM]

MeckMeck GRE
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Impressive ! Especially the riddle where you can take 1-3 sticks and the Hanoni riddles are cute !

agaricus5
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For more Hanoi puzzles and long solution rooms, you might like to visit here too:

http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=1678

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schep
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Heh. I see the "longest room" problem has already been considered. I considered filling the exit room with a huger version of the binary Gray code machine in 1N 1E, which could easily top 10^30 moves. Or at least appear to. I would have thrown in a scroll reachable after a few dozen moves suggesting that the Architect never finished the room, and let the next orb open the path to the exit.

I thought 6 Gray bits and 5 Hanoi disks made good sizes for this format. The Hanoi puzzle only involves 21 disk moves (42 orb activations), but the trouble is that Beethro runs around so much doing it. I would have done Fifteen if I could have squeezed it in, but Eight turns out to be good, again because of the running around factor.

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
I have been inspired by VortexSurfer's inventive work in The Palace of Puzzles (and Annex).

That's great - More puzzles ... I like it! Especially the sticks game, because it represents a new kind of puzzle. What about other games? I guess Tic-Tac-Toe would be rather easy to implement, but kind of pointless (you would have to go for a draw, or the "computer" would have to make mistakes).

Regarding 2E, I understand how the puzzle is working, but I don't get the reference to "building an eight", or "building a fifteen". What's that about?

schep
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VortexSurfer wrote:
Especially the sticks game, because it represents a new kind of puzzle.

It's the simplest form of a nim game, and I've seen it used within games before (the sequel to Schizm comes to mind). In fact, googling for nim game doesn't bring up any this simple. Maybe a multi-pile game would be more interesting, though it would be much trickier to implement a perfect opponent.

I guess Tic-Tac-Toe would be rather easy to implement, but kind of pointless (you would have to go for a draw, or the "computer" would have to make mistakes).

Yeah, I can't see any way of making that into a good puzzle....

Regarding 2E, I understand how the puzzle is working, but I don't get the reference to "building an eight", or "building a fifteen". What's that about?

Oh. The sliding block puzzle most commonly appears with 15 pieces in a 4x4 grid and is sometimes called 'the Fifteen puzzle.' I think I once had a little plastic toy that looked something like http://www.javaonthebrain.com/java/puzz15/

schep
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New version attached, now for JtRH engine only. Changes for version 1.10:

* The Nim puzzle (1N3E) is now truly two-player. A goblin character runs around hitting orbs when it's his turn.
* A new sequel to the Nim puzzle is in 1N4E.
* A bit of dirt and so on to change the look of some rooms.

For anyone who takes the time to test this, the new Nim II puzzle is supposed to be designed so that neither you nor the goblin can get stuck before the three doors in the east corridor open. Also, there should be only one winning solution.

More puzzles coming, but I wanted to get this much public. Maybe even show it off.

Banjooie
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Uh, 2N2E doesn't look right to me. It looks like there's an extra plank there on the righthand side that kinda bungs things up a touch.

schep
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Banjooie wrote:
Uh, 2N2E doesn't look right to me. It looks like there's an extra plank there on the righthand side that kinda bungs things up a touch.

It looks good to me. Is it confusing, or does it seem poorly designed somehow? I just quadruple-checked that the room can be solved, if that's what you mean.

Banjooie
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Well, y'see, there are two yellow gates down when you enter the room.

I would assume that you only have one plank, so I'm somewhat mystified as to the second down yellow gate.

(Also, the hold as a whole needs a lot more explanation per room. I figure the puzzles are difficult enough without having to figure out what the puzzle is supposed to be. See: Sliding Puzzle, where it's difficult to tell even what the numbers are.)

schep
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Thanks for the comments, Banjooie. I'll have to give some thought to making the scrolls more verbose. I may need to just smash the Fourth Wall.

In the plank puzzle, there are actually three planks: two short and one long.

For the sliding puzzle: Who said anything about numbers? I did use binary numbers systematically to create the symbols, and if that helps the solver keep things straight, great. But all you need to know is that the 8 "symbols" need to move to plug the holes in walls. If the walls leave it too confusing to figure out which symbols need to go where, I could try a floor image that outlines the doors that should be up. (That room is still exactly as it was in AE, so I only thought of the floor image alternative just now.)

schep
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New version attached (jump to top post).

Changes for version 1.20:
* Sliding block puzzle (moved from 2E to 3E) uses a floor image to make the correct configuration more obvious.
* Triangle peg solitaire (1S2E) entirely redone with a script detecting Beethro's position and sword direction.
* Two new puzzles! (in 2E and 1S3E)

I don't anticipate any more puzzles soon, so I might as well polish this off and get it on the Holds board. Any comments you can post or PM in the next several days will be much appreciated.

VortexSurfer
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Just a quick note (more feedback later):

The Avalance puzzle (2E) has a trivial solution, because you can



VortexSurfer

schep
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Oops. I guess character-monsters don't move on the same turn as a "Turn into monster". And I can't believe I didn't actually test that attack.

Failing to see any better way to resolve this, I think I will put a bomb just east of the northwest orb. In the meantime, testers can just pretend any warning from a goblin standing three squares behind Beethro is deadly serious.


[Edited by schep at Local Time:05-19-2005 at 08:39 PM]

VortexSurfer
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File: LeafJuice.jpg (97.5 KB)
Downloaded 90 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

OK, here's some more feedback:

First and most important of all, I didn't find any other trivial solutions.

I really like the new peg solitaire (1S2E), it looks and plays great. The markings on the floor are also a good idea in the sliding puzzle (3E). What about adding some floor markings in the leaf juice puzzle room? You could for example draw pipes between the bottles, equipped with faucets on which you can step onto in order to operate the bottles (see attachement for the general idea - I guess you'd have to use a custom floor though).

Minor cosmetic issue: In 1E, there is this single desk in a corner. Was that supposed to signify anything/ produce a comment or something like that?

Finally, some of the puzzles could be redone without doors/ orbs at all, I guess, similar to Watcher's peg solitaire puzzles. That's mainly an aesthetic decision though.

I guess that's all. Oh, and I'd really like to see additional puzzles. Any plans on that?

VortexSurfer

schep
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I said no more puzzles, did I? Well, I lied a bit. I got to thinking the plank maze would look much nicer without all those little door-orb passages, and that I could probably fit a bigger grid on the screen without them. And I eventually designed a bigger and better puzzle more to my satisfaction. Thus, version 1.30 above has:

* A fix to the trivial solution to Oskar's puzzle in 2E (and a bit more on the scroll)
* The new and improved 2N2E plank maze
* 1N1E now takes advantage of diagonally adjacent doors so Beethro doesn't have to move quite so much
* An extra scroll in the 1S3E leaf juice puzzle to help explain which orb does what (I don't think drawing pipes would look good here.)

As to more puzzle holds, I do have half an idea. But it's entirely different, and I'm unlikely to start on it for a few months, if ever.

Edit: And this time it really is going to Holds within a week (assuming no major problems).

[Edited by schep at Local Time:05-24-2005 at 04:34 AM]

schep
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I attempted to design 1S3E so that it would work both before and after a certain bugfix in JtRH 2.0.7. I failed, apparently. The V1.31 hold attached to this post makes the room work as intended in 2.0.7, but I suspect it won't work as intended in older versions.

Perhaps I should have kept some more installer files around so that I could experiment with multiple DROD versions. If somebody reading this is still using 2.0.6 or earlier, could you do me a favor? Do guards in the attached hold move at one square per turn? What does the Instructor at the north say if you approach her?

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
If somebody reading this is still using 2.0.6 or earlier, could you do me a favor? Do guards in the attached hold move at one square per turn? What does the Instructor at the north say if you approach her?

I have to report that the puzzle is completely broken in 2.0.6 now. The leftmost guard moves once but doesn't strike any orb after that. The others strike orbs but not as expected/ intended. The Instructor says:
"Oh, don't mind me, I'm just watching"
"I've been observing ... since 2.0.7"

On a more positive note, the new plank puzzle seems to work fine.

VortexSurfer

schep
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File: VersionTest.hold (1015 bytes)
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Thanks VS. One more idea: what does the character in this test hold do in 2.0.6 or earlier? If this one doesn't work, I'll just release with a disclaimer that it can only be played in 2.0.7+.

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
Thanks VS. One more idea: what does the character in this test hold do in 2.0.6 or earlier? If this one doesn't work, I'll just release with a disclaimer that it can only be played in 2.0.7+.

He says "2.0.6." - Looks like you got it!

schep
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Great, and thanks again.

So then, Version 1.32 is attached up top. It ought to work in all JtRH versions, and will likely be the posted Holds version.

Tablesaw
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It looks like Twice East still has a trivial solution. My demo and Stefan's both demonstrate it. A second bomb beneath the first should fix it.

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schep
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Tablesaw wrote:
It looks like Twice East still has a trivial solution. ... A second bomb beneath the first should fix it.

Arrrgh. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll do something about it at some point after hold-upgrading is working.