VortexSurfer
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The Maze hold pointed me to some new puzzles that are DROD-compatible. Here's the first four of them. What do you think?

Update: This is the current version of "The Palace of Puzzles - JtRH Remake"!



[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:10-23-2004 at 04:49 PM: New Version 0.6 - Added two additional puzzles and schematic overviews of complex rooms]

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:03-26-2005 at 06:54 PM: New Version 0.9 - Added four more puzzles]

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:03-26-2005 at 07:00 PM: Changed description]

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 02:02 PM: Bugfix for Closed Loop puzzle & Some Cleanup]

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 03:56 PM: Bugfix for Packing Crate maze & More Explanations]

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:03-31-2005 at 10:25 PM: Changed Closed Loop puzzle]

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:04-01-2005 at 06:32 PM: Change Closed Loop puzzle - once again]

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[Last edited by VortexSurfer at 06-19-2005 10:59 PM]

jdyer
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I'd much rather you make these a separate hold. I try to keep track of which holds I've beaten and if a hold substantially changes that gets undermined a bit. (Plus, you can't add rooms to your Holds upload anyway.)

I was trying to figure out earlier how to make a tilt maze in DROD -- very nifty. The problem with these (and I suppose some of the ones in the original Palace of Puzzles) is that it is very hard to visualize what is going on with so much 'stuff' on the screen. It took me a while just to figure out where to *enter* the tilt maze. It might help to have a 'simple version' of the complex-looking puzzles in an adjacent room so the player can see how the wall layout looks without all the extra junk around.

VortexSurfer
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jdyer wrote:
I'd much rather you make these a separate hold. I try to keep track of which holds I've beaten and if a hold substantially changes that gets undermined a bit. (Plus, you can't add rooms to your Holds upload anyway.)

You're right - It's just a little too small for a separate hold right now. But I think I'll keep them separate.

jdyer wrote:
It might help to have a 'simple version' of the complex-looking puzzles in an adjacent room so the player can see how the wall layout looks without all the extra junk around.

That's a very good idea! The same room - without monsters, and without orbs - should help to visualize the puzzle in some cases. I think I'll add those rooms for the mazes.

Thanks for the feedback!

Vortex Surfer

VortexSurfer
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jdyer wrote:
It might help to have a 'simple version' of the complex-looking puzzles in an adjacent room so the player can see how the wall layout looks without all the extra junk around.

OK, I have done this now for two of the mazes (see new version of the hold). I hope it helps and makes the rooms a little less confusing!

VortexSurfer

VortexSurfer
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I've added four new puzzles now, for a total of ten puzzles in the annex: A Minesweeper puzzle, a rolling-block maze, a closed loop puzzle, and a "Take" from the very nice Kung Fu Packing Crate Maze (original version here).

I would appreciate feedback especially regarding the follwing aspects:
* Are all explanations understandable and sufficiently extensive?
* Are there any unintended solutions (in particular for the "Closed Loop" puzzle)?

VortexSurfer

schep
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Still looking at some of these, but the attached demo shows the beginning of a trivial solution to the Closed Loop. Beethro can then place the second mimic immediately, or easily kill all the maze brains without worrying about path length or crossings. I would suggest adding more walls so Beethro has absolutely no maneouvering room before taking the first mimic potion. Put a force arrow on anything that would become a potential dead end.

Speaking of force arrows, it seems unnecessarily cruel that the room to the north of Closed Loop prevents the player from easily switching to another puzzle after entering the Closed Loop maze without conquering it. Restoring to the start of the room offers no way out... you'd have to restore to a different room, and possibly lose a bit of progress.

And as long as I'm posting already, the Minesweeper puzzle still has indicators of the solution. The rolling block puzzle might also; I'm not sure what those arrows are.

[Edited by schep at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 03:16 AM]

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
Still looking at some of these, but the attached demo shows the beginning of a trivial solution to the Closed Loop. Beethro can then place the second mimic immediately, or easily kill all the maze brains without worrying about path length or crossings. I would suggest adding more walls so Beethro has absolutely no maneouvering room before taking the first mimic potion. Put a force arrow on anything that would become a potential dead end.

I added a wall as you suggested - I hope there aren't any other trivial solutions possible now!

Speaking of force arrows, it seems unnecessarily cruel that the room to the north of Closed Loop prevents the player from easily switching to another puzzle after entering the Closed Loop maze without conquering it. Restoring to the start of the room offers no way out... you'd have to restore to a different room, and possibly lose a bit of progress.

That's right, the arrows were just intended as a hint where to start the room. I've fixed that as well ...

And as long as I'm posting already, the Minesweeper puzzle still has indicators of the solution. The rolling block puzzle might also; I'm not sure what those arrows are.

Oops, I really must have been blind there - All hints removed now!

Thanks very much for all the feedback!

VortexSurfer

schep
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Okay, now some more complete comments on the new puzzles:

The scroll font problem causes some scrolls to lose the last word or two on Linux. IIUC, JtRH will make scrolls look as they do now on Linux on every platform, so several scrolls will need checking at the upgrade.

Packing crates: The mimic can walk away from an illegal move if there's another crate stack in the direction he tried to topple it. I was able to use this quirk to cheat in the attached demo. (Toward the end, watch for when the middle height 3 stack is illegally toppled. After the following move, the mimic should not have been able to get back to the height 3 stack, but Beethro has it continue falling and makes a new path.)

Edit: I see a new version is up. The attached demo is from v0.90.

Minesweeper: Fine puzzle, except it's not clear in the directions that 'Remaining squares' does not include squares with checkpoints. 'Squares without mines or checkpoints' would be better, but would require a third scroll, I guess.

Closed loop: Ignoring the trivial solution I posted earlier, there are many more solutions than the 'one' claimed. After my pen & paper figuring, many parts of the maze only permit one path (like the northernmost third), but other parts (particularly the center-east and center-south sections) allow multiple solutions. I don't know if the maze itself needs to be changed; puzzles without unique solutions can often be harder.

And by all this picking apart, I really do mean "keep up the good work."

[Edited by schep at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 02:45 PM]

VortexSurfer
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OK, new version is up now ...

schep wrote:
The scroll font problem causes some scrolls to lose the last word or two on Linux. IIUC, JtRH will make scrolls look as they do now on Linux on every platform, so several scrolls will need checking at the upgrade.

I didn't know about that - I guess I'll have to check all scrolls for JtRH. There is no way to do this in the current version on a Windows system, or is there?

What would help here were scrolls that you could actually ... scroll! Well, just a thought ...

Packing crates: The mimic can walk away from an illegal move if there's another crate stack in the direction he tried to topple it. I was able to use this quirk to cheat in the attached demo. (Toward the end, watch for when the middle height 3 stack is illegally toppled. After the following move, the mimic should not have been able to get back to the height 3 stack, but Beethro has it continue falling and makes a new path.)

I see - I had to fix this by disallowing illegal moves altogether. Unfortunately, this means that you can trap yourself rather easily now. But I don't see any other way.

Minesweeper: Fine puzzle, except it's not clear in the directions that 'Remaining squares' does not include squares with checkpoints. 'Squares without mines or checkpoints' would be better, but would require a third scroll, I guess.

Done.

Closed loop: Ignoring the trivial solution I posted earlier, there are many more solutions than the 'one' claimed. After my pen & paper figuring, many parts of the maze only permit one path (like the northernmost third), but other parts (particularly the center-east and center-south sections) allow multiple solutions. I don't know if the maze itself needs to be changed; puzzles without unique solutions can often be harder.

That's right, a unique solution may require more red gates and would perhaps actually be easier because of fewer possible moves.
Still, I haven't found alternate solutions, do you have a screenshot for one (or two, actually)?

Thanks again for the really useful comments!

VortexSurfer

schep
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The changes to the entry of the Closed Loop maze look good. With the brains active and all passages one space wide, there should be no way of misleading the serpent at the beginning.

These two solutions are nearly as different as I can get them. Compare this with that [spoilers, of course]. Not even all the parts the two solutions have in common are necessary, I think.

The scroll font problem and its status in JtRH have been discussed here.

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
These two solutions are nearly as different as I can get them. Compare this with that [spoilers, of course]. Not even all the parts the two solutions have in common are necessary, I think.

After some consideration, I redid the whole puzzle. Looks nicer now, and there may not be that many different solutions anymore.

The scroll font problem and its status in JtRH have been discussed here.

OK, well, I think I'll just wait for JtRH and fix the scrolls then.

VortexSurfer

schep
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I do like the new look. It's nice how something so almost symmetrical at first glance forces a very asymmetrical solution. There are also several solutions to this one. But this time choices can only be made southeast of the center square, if I figured right. More spoilery images of two differing solutions here and there. Of course, multiple solutions are not a problem, as long as you remember to change that scroll which still claims there's only one.

The addition of horizontal crumbly walls adds a nice twist, setting up some places where the path may cross southward or not at all, but never northward. But I was surprised

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
I do like the new look. It's nice how something so almost symmetrical at first glance forces a very asymmetrical solution. There are also several solutions to this one.

I've added a little more symmetry - This may finally leave only one possible solution. Multiple solutions are not really a problem, but somehow I just don't like the idea.

But I was surprised

Click here to view the secret text

×that no solutions actually involve a path through a crumbly wall. They made solving the maze more interesting anyway.

It wasn't planned, just turned out that way. Thanks again Schep for the useful screenshots!

VortexSurfer

schep
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That change narrows it down a bit. I believe there are now exactly four solutions. Two are nearly exactly identical, a third is a modest modification of those two, and a fourth rearranges the entire SE quadrant. I have them on paper, but I won't have the time/computer to make any screenshots this weekend.

VortexSurfer
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schep wrote:
That change narrows it down a bit. I believe there are now exactly four solutions. Two are nearly exactly identical, a third is a modest modification of those two, and a fourth rearranges the entire SE quadrant. I have them on paper, but I won't have the time/computer to make any screenshots this weekend.

I know everybody (myself included) is playing JtRH right now, but I still would like to finish the work on this hold. Schep, I'd be really grateful if you could help me out one more time - I really seem to suck at solving my own puzzles, because again I don't see these alternate solutions.

Could you just point out the squares where the two most dissimilar solutions diverge, something like:
(3, -2) SESWS, meaning "loop turns south, then east, south, west, south from square 3 (east) and 2 (south) of the blocked center square"?

VortexSurfer

VortexSurfer
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VortexSurfer wrote:

schep wrote:
That change narrows it down a bit. I believe there are now exactly four solutions. Two are nearly exactly identical, a third is a modest modification of those two, and a fourth rearranges the entire SE quadrant. I have them on paper, but I won't have the time/computer to make any screenshots this weekend.

I know everybody (myself included) is playing JtRH right now, but I still would like to finish the work on this hold. Schep, I'd be really grateful if you could help me out one more time - I really seem to suck at solving my own puzzles, because again I don't see these alternate solutions.

Never mind that, I finally found them ... Scrolls are fixed as well now, and the hold is ready for the holds section, where it will be incorporated into "The Palace of Puzzles - Extended Version" containing all 20 puzzles.

VortexSurfer