Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Finally finished the hold to current development point. The mechanics for the two special items seem fun, but they're barely used so far, pretty much just in the setup for the two Wyrms, which is just a slightly different way of modifying their standard stats, since there isn't much of a way to achieve different outcomes in that space. It almost allowed me to set up a series of jumps that would allow me to kill the Serpent, and I suspect a good optimizer could (or I could probably have spent keys for potions/bombs on earlier floors that would have enabled that). Not that there's any reason to do so (since by that level I've far outpaced the need for greckles again and never used the altar), but it could have been a fun challenge.

I didn't appreciate getting that far, having the new equipment replace/delete the hook and steel shield, and then having to back up to the beginning of the previous level and start over to have the relevant brother carry the lesser of the two pieces. But that's just a more extreme version of a danger in a lot of this hold. It's easy to discover that choices you made on previous floors (for how to distribute stats and equipment) are going to make the current floor much more difficult/impossible. It's not even a problem, exactly, just requires a lot more saving and resetting than many other holds.

Aside from using the skeleton keys to make progress you haven't "earned" yet, there's only the one extra blue door they could open so far, right?

Overall, though, it's a really interesting challenge in figuring out how best to manage both characters. Floors with a single boss work best when you put most of the stats on one character, but then that leaves you without enough on the other character for the floors with two bosses. Building them the way they start (Promethius gets ATK and Demetrius gets DEF) works better, but that leaves Demetrius short of ATK to hit various monsters and bosses that only he can. And then deciding who's going to kill each monster and when complicates matters. There's a lot going on, but it's still basically kept narrow enough that you can't get too paralyzed.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
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I'll agree that there's an inherent risk of boosting one brother or the other "too much", but there is an equipment swap place back in Second Basement that you could've used once you realized your equipment was "wrong" (unless you already used it?). I could probably add a second one somewhere closer, I think.

Also, it seems like you missed the fact that Frozen Catacomb's two blue key rooms are designed specifically to use the special equipment to get them, the Aqua Shield for the west one and the Mecha Sword for the east one. The idea is that (if you're not using the skeleton keys), you can decide which of those two to get the "expensive" way to unlock either the sword or shield, and then get the other probably for free. Or, at least in theory, you could choose to pass on spending a blue key on the level just before to go straight into Twisted Maze and grab a special equipment right away (probably), then get both of Frozen Catacomb's keys cheap if not free. I haven't tested trying to actually do that, though; it'd possibly require using a key or two earlier for more health.

There's also the room just west of said "spend a blue key for a bonus", the one with a brain and an anti-brain, where both special equipments can make getting the stuff in there less expensive. But I do intend to give some more opportunities to use that equipment in the final level, of course, including against the final boss.

Your mentioning jumping to kill the serpent, though...I should change what exactly a certain script does, I think. It'll probably be in the next update.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 11-09-2020 02:56 AM]

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Basically until Frozen Catacomb, I'm getting everything available on each level in order to kill the bosses on that level, rather than Nuntar's approach of killing the boss very early and moving forward. So, yes, I've long since used the Second Basement swap, and already killed those (expensive) monsters in Natural Cave. You're probably right that I could have saved that, except that, IIRC, I needed all those stats to get Demetrius to a point where he could kill his Slime Mother boss on that floor.

By Frozen Catacomb, though, that means I'm in a good position to go back and forth between getting easy stats in Twisted Maze to make a few things cheap enough in Frozen Catacomb to get. First some Red Guards, then the roaches guarding the equipment, then most everything else. By the time I was ready to get those blue keys, the Gel Mother was pretty cheap (350, I think) and the Gels were free.

On the serpent, don't make that impossible. If anything, I'd propose finding a way to reward it (that isn't available once you're coming back from the final level, when it will presumably be easier). It makes the intended puzzle a lot easier, but is, in itself, a much harder and costlier puzzle. If I'd managed to do it, I'd have been really proud of myself. A long thin passage in the north wall, that only the 1x4 can get into and only after you've moved the serpent's piece out of the way, with some kind of reward (a third skeleton key?), and then some approach to trapdoors and a red door to close it off if you just come in and solve the regular puzzle might work.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
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That makes sense. I'd guess that skipping some things and going back is likely to be a "better" strategy, but it's not going to be the one a lot of people try first.

As for the serpent, I may as well come out and say it instead of trying to be mysterious, but I'll put it in a secret anyway:


I don't know for sure whether it's stats-wise possible to kill the serpent; I'd probably have to ask a real optimizer (as opposed to myself). I dunno that I'd want it to give tangible in-level-set prizes, but I'd be open to a challenge scorepoint for killing it before killing Prometheus's Adder or something. Its intended use is certainly just to "hold down" that middle platform for the purposes of the puzzle.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 11-09-2020 03:32 PM]

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

I was only about 3500 HP from being able to kill the Serpent, some of which I could have used the altar to transfer over, so I'm pretty confident some combination of shifting slightly more stats to Prometheus, using the potions to save HP on the relevant rock golem/goblins (since, at least to this development point, I have extra yellow keys), and being better at optimizing would make it possible.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
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File: Prometheus Demetrius - OLD.drh (32 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

!!Important Update!!
-For the latest build of DROD RPG, the puzzle in SB 6E would not work properly anymore. I've updated the first post with a new version of the level set that has things reconfigured so that it'll work with all the new "NPCs on tarstuff" behavior, and should be about the same cost/benefit balance as it was before.
-Another small scripting change related to the secret in my previous post.


In case someone is still using an older version of RPG, I'm attaching the previous version of the level set that worked with that to this post, marked specifically as "- OLD".

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 11-12-2020 04:41 PM]

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
IP: Logged

Hey, it's been a while, huh? I tend to have kind of a very on-and-off habit with playing/developing my DRPG level sets. Recently I did a no-SK runthrough of Prom&Dem, and my impression was that it's harder than I remember it being. I'm not sure if I've actually done a full run (of what's there, up to the adders in TM) with the increased greckle gate prices and fixed mud wyrms before, so it could be either a result of those prices, or just that I'm rusty and not as good as I was during the initial development. But even if it's just the latter, I don't really want the skill floor for merely surviving the second level to be too high. Specifically, I determined that the mud wyrms were a bit of a wall in the latest state of the game, maybe even an unreasonable one, seemingly no matter which build up to that point I tried, so I tweaked their defense down just a bit to hopefully balance things better. Therefore, the first post has an update with that change.

Something else I wondered was: Has anyone, in any run-through of the game, actually bought one of the hand bombs in TM that cost a green key and used it somewhere? I put those in because I thought it conceivable that the free kill on something on that floor might be worth that price, but I honestly can't tell for myself. Should they maybe cost a yellow key instead, or some greckles or something? Or are they so pointless that I ought to remove them?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 05-26-2021 07:38 PM]

Von Wibble
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 35
Registered: 07-21-2008
IP: Logged

Tried to start this but it says its for a later version of DROD than I have (I am v 1.2.8).

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
IP: Logged

Hmm. The most recent update of the level set was made in the not-yet-finalized version 1.3 (see this thread), but doesn't contain any features from that version (e.g. crates, big stats, etc.), so I'm not sure why it wouldn't still be compatible with 1.2.8. Well, there isn't much I can do about it since the "OLD" backup a few posts back was for version prior to 1.2.8...

If anyone happens to still have a copy of the immediately previous version to this update of the level set, feel free to attach it to a post here, I guess?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-29-2021 03:52 PM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

When you export a hold from DROD, the hold file includes the version it was exported from. Even if you aren't using any 1.3-only features, it's still a 1.3 file, so earlier versions of DROD won't import it.

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Qzvlkx?

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
IP: Logged

But I haven't had this issue at all with regular DROD: No one has told me they weren't able to import a hold I made in the 5.1.1 beta. I mean, maybe nobody has tried, but that seems unlikely as I've been using it for a while now.

EDIT: I guess the "internal version number" hasn't been updated in that beta? I'm reasonably sure the version of the CEC that I put to the HA's and got posted in the holds board was made using the beta, but the thread says it's 5.0.2.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-29-2021 04:25 PM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1062
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

5.1.1 doesn't have any changes to the hold format, so it's exported files are backwards compatible with 5.1. When 5.2 alpha happens, you won't be able to go backwards. Similarly, RPG 1.2.7 and RPG 1.2.8 are intercompatible, but RPG 1.3 adds new tile types and script commands, which means the files can't be backwards compatible.

The version numbers not matching up on the holds board is weird, however. Probably you want to make a Site post about that?

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TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3118
Registered: 06-11-2007
IP: Logged

hyperme wrote:
The version numbers not matching up on the holds board is weird, however. Probably you want to make a Site post about that?

DROD Holds only store the Export Version number, which as you've already noted, is what DROD uses to determine whether it's backwards compatible or not. There simply hasn't been a change since 5.0.2 that has required an update to the Hold Export version. So the site can only state what is the earliest version of DROD that can successfully import that hold file.

Of course, this doesn't mean that a hold created in 5.1.1 is actually completable in 5.0.2, since rooms could easily rely on bug fixes even though the data format hasn't changed. Figuring out what the earliest DROD version that can successfully *complete* a hold is not trivial and definitely can't be easily automated. And we generally prefer people to be using the latest stable release anyways (and that's the version the HAs would be using to verify the submission) so compiling that information wouldn't be all that useful considering the difficulty in doing so.