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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Gentryii training (Testing desperately needed, and no, this is not just a bunch of chain manipulation puzzles :-))
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Dying Flutchman
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File: Gentryiification_final.hold (150.4 KB)
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icon Gentryii training (+4)  
And.....

It's gone. To HA.

Dear forum friends,

Update 26 June
Uploaded version 5 (small errors corrected and some changes because Insoluble started breaking things :) ). Also changed 2S1W and 3S1W quite a bit. Reply to your inputs in the post below.

Testing needed for the secret rooms and for the examination rooms (starting at 1E after clearing the main level). So if you feel bored and give it a try, I would be very thankful :)

=============

Gentryii seem to be very confusing. And puzzles involving more advanced Gentryii manipulation (especially chain straigtening!) are broadly considered nasty/loathsome/unfair/frustrating/a total turnoff.

So I decided to build a tutorial explaining all G mechanics in quite some detail. I expect that it will help at least some of you to understand gentryii much better. And I hope that it will convince many of you to actually like gentryii a little bit more... Because I feel that gentryii have much more potential then just building chain movement chaos prediction puzzles.

So I want to ask for your help with testing this level.

1) There are many scrolls. Any help in finding typos or other language errors would be greatly appreaciated.
2) The explanation of the chain dragging and straigtening mechanics (rooms 1S to 4S and side rooms) is difficult for me to efficiently describe in a couple of scrolls, especially since I am not a native English speaker. Any suggestions for improvements are also greatly appreciated.
3) Demos are available upon request.
4)The secret room at 1S3E is still empty. I do hope that some of you will be inspired to fiddle around with gentryii, and actually contribute a room to my hold as post-mastery present for the persistent player.
You will be credited of course, and eternal sunshine will light your path. I hope.


Many thanks!

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My latest project has been published: all you can ask for in casu gentryii.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=43532&page=0#425526

[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 09-12-2018 09:22 PM]
05-13-2018 at 09:38 PM
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Elfstone
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
I'm not a very good player, so maybe I am misunderstanding something, but I can't seem to complete the Entrance, because I can't break the crumbly walls with my sword (oremites).

1W scroll says "Keep on the oremites to stay save" should be "safe".

"Gentryii are oftend chained..." should be "often"


More later when I've played more. :)

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[Last edited by Elfstone at 05-13-2018 10:47 PM]
05-13-2018 at 10:23 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Firstly, thank you so much for making this hold! :thumbsup As a gentryii lover myself, it irritates me when they get so much negative press.

I'm going to note issues with the hold design first, and make a second pass afterwards to help with emending the scrolls.

1W: It was tricky to spot the move required to deal with the gentryii on the 5x5 door. Perhaps this should be explicitly stated? The challenge was fun, although it activated a little too soon, when the last 2-tile gentryii was on the (now open) 5x5 door rather than trapped in the hot tile area. Finally, it wasn't very clear which way to go to continue.

2N1W: Unintended solution to the NW chamber: I push one gentryii into the corridor with the 1-tile pressure plate, leaving the other confined. Could be fixed by using an orb.

1N1W: "Explanation: chain reach" tooltip reappears on the second visit, even though I'm learning about unpinning now. There's an unintended solution, though it may be harder than the intended: push the mirror onto the south pressure plate, then remain in the top area and tag the other plates one at a time so the roach moves down.

1S1W: Wasted a lot of time because I didn't recognise the platform and assumed the briar should kill the waterskipper nest.

2S1W: Excellent puzzle! But checkpoint needs to be next to 21,6 pressure plate for more convenient saving.

4W: Another really nice puzzle, though I was stumped at the very start for quite a while.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-13-2018 11:37 PM]
05-13-2018 at 11:07 PM
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Xindaris
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File: Gentryiification - Xin.demo (8.4 KB)
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icon Re: Gentryii training (+1)  
I strongly suspect that I broke a few of your enforcement mechanisms (particularly 2N1W, 1N1W, 5S), so I've attached demos.

And now, thorough scroll proofreading (tiny bit of it is repeating what has already been said):

Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Xindaris at 05-14-2018 03:47 AM]
05-14-2018 at 03:27 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
quote:
Dying Flutchman wrote:
3) The explanation of the chain dragging and straightening mechanics (rooms 1S to 4S and side rooms) is difficult for me to efficiently describe in a couple of scrolls, especially since I am not a native English speaker computer or insane. Any suggestions for improvements are also greatly appreciated.


Fixed that for you.

I downloaded it thinking, "Maybe if I understand them better I'll hate them less." Yeah, that didn't happen.

But it seems a valiant effort!
05-14-2018 at 06:29 AM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Hi y'all,

Thanks for your quick responses. I'll give it a week our so to collect some more input. Then I'll start working on revisions.

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My latest project has been published: all you can ask for in casu gentryii.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=43532&page=0#425526
05-14-2018 at 07:32 AM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Just downloaded this and will take a look. A word of advice though:
quote:
Dying Flutchman wrote: So I decided to build a tutorial explaining all G mechanics in quite some detail. I expect that it will help at least some of you to understand gentryii much better. And I hope that it will convince many of you to actually like gentryii a little bit more...

I can't speak for everyone, but the three or four people who come to mind as disliking gentryii the most don't hate them from a lack of understanding. Quite the opposite. We all know exactly how they work which is why we tend to dislike them. I would encourage you to keep this in mind when writing the hold description and text for the hold. Your target audience here is more likely to be people who already enjoy this kind of thing. It's similar to precisely manipulating large numbers of wraithwings. Some people enjoy it. Those of us who don't are aware of the wonderful level in Advanced Concepts 2 explaining exactly how it works, but we still don't enjoy it.

Also, as Someone Else hinted above, chain straightening is something that is complicated to describe in general, I don't think it has anything to do with language skills. Skell made a wonderful video showing how in just 15 minutes you can deduce how a length 7 chain will straighten. You may want to watch it for inspiration.


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05-14-2018 at 08:34 AM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Dear testers,

I have uploaded a new version, your comments have been very useful.

Testing status:
1) Added new room at 1N2W and changed 2S1W, 3S1W. Could you test those rooms (again?)
2) Who would be willing to go through the explanations in rooms 2S and 2S1E and see if they make sense?
3) Any comments about the secret rooms?
4) Any comments about the examination rooms?

Many thanks again!


@Nuntar:
2N1W - fixed US
Other comments processed, except for you not finding the platform in 1S. Placing the platform at another location felt really awkward somehow, design did not work very well. Let's see if others are having the same problem.

@Xindaris:
Fixed lots of language errors. Many thanks.
Fixed US in 2N1W, 1N1W, 5S. Especially 1N1W was changed quite a bit, since I couldn't get the puzzle to work with the goblin.

I also noted that you solved 2S1W without using the mirror. I had thought this impossible. Could you check again in the new setup?

@Insoluble (and perhaps also @Someone Else):
I realize that many are put off by gentryii. In the hold, I try to emphasize that the dirty details on chain straightening are certainly not the most important aspect of gentryii manipulation. There is so much more to build nice puzzles with!
Have added some scrolls to explain and warn the player that yes, it is pretty nasty to look at the details, but no, it should not be necessary to actually predict what's happening.
Will also be careful about the hold description text when it will be finally uploaded.


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My latest project has been published: all you can ask for in casu gentryii.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=43532&page=0#425526
05-24-2018 at 08:20 AM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Bump - dear all, this definitely still needs testing. Anyone care to take a look? Any remarks are appreciated, even if it's just for a couple of rooms.

Tnx!

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My latest project has been published: all you can ask for in casu gentryii.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=43532&page=0#425526
06-07-2018 at 04:32 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Okay, so I played through some more.

Click here to view the secret text

06-17-2018 at 05:12 AM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Hi SE, thanks for your input. Have a question about the backtracking. Replies below:

quote:
Someone Else wrote:
Okay, so I played through some more.

Click here to view the secret text



____________________________
My latest project has been published: all you can ask for in casu gentryii.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=43532&page=0#425526
06-17-2018 at 08:10 PM
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Insoluble
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File: Gentryiification.demo (21.3 KB)
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
I played through the west bit of this (basic manipulation) and have been meaning to post comments. Demos are attached.

Overall I thought the explanations here were well put together and that this had a bit of an "Advanced Concepts" feel to it. Though this focuses on an element I typically find annoying and fiddly to deal with, it seems you did your best to avoid the worst aspects of manipulation and this was relatively painless.

1E: Challenge was not too bad. I can place a decoy on the plate at (5,1) when entering the room then exit to the north at that exit. Reentering allows me to go straight to 1S1W skipping everything to the north. Not sure if you want to try to prevent that.

1N1E: I feel like I was supposed to use the gentryii to hold down plates in the southwest bit but I ended up mostly ignoring it.

2N1W: Looks like trapping the northeast gentryii is optional? I did it anyway. If this was supposed to be enforced you'd need to extend the yellow door at (14,1) to (14,2) or something like that.

1N2W: Pretty fiddly. Well at least it's a secret room I suppose.

1S2W: I feel like you could probably get the idea across with less than half as many aumtlich. Seems like there must be a way to require you to bring a mirror through the room without necessitating that much cleanup at the end.

1S1W, 2W, and 3W were all solid tutorial rooms. These felt very much like something out of Advanced Concepts (in a good way!)

4W: The brained manipulation at the end was pretty fun. This was a nice room.

quote:
Dying Flutchman wrote:
Don't see what you mean here. You mean the exit with the broken walls? If you use that, you can get back to 1W and then down again through 1S1W. You do need some gentryii sword manipulation skills for that, but it's certainly doable. Or is there some other oversight?

Possibly this: If you clear 2S1W then go back the way you came (i.e. not taking the broken wall path) to 1S1W then ultimately back to 1W you appear to be stuck. You don't appear to be able to go back south to 2S1W if you cleared 1S1W already and the path to 2W and the other required rooms on the level requires you to be able to get back down there. Removing the green sister gate at (22,2) in 1S1W should fix the issue, though I'm not sure if there's a reason it needs to be there.

Next section seems to be chain straightening. I don't have the mental capacity to take that on right now, but will try to get back to it soon.

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06-25-2018 at 06:49 AM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Gentryii training (0)  
Hi Insoluble,

Thanks for looking into this.

quote:
Insoluble wrote:
...and this was relatively painless.


Yes! That's right. It shouldn't be all about nervous breakdowns when gentryii are involved :)

Now for your remarks:

Click here to view the secret text


____________________________
My latest project has been published: all you can ask for in casu gentryii.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=43532&page=0#425526

[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 06-26-2018 01:27 PM]
06-26-2018 at 10:09 AM
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