Red-XIII
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File: BSL Exit Garden 3S Victory.zip (6.5 KB)
Downloaded 55 times.
License: Public Domain

More comments for Exit Garden:

1S: I spent 30 minutes again going around without having a clue of what to do, then I "saw" the solution, and it felt like the easiest room of all time, such a terrific feeling!
1E: I attached 2 demos for this, one using no decoys at all (though I had to remove potions) and another doing almost trial and error. I'm not sure what solution you had in mind (also, what's the disarm token for?) but there are plenty of solution avaible here, I can also use tar babies.
2S: Didn't completed the fixed version yet (I'm stumped actually) but it is possible to exit to the south without clearing the room (by exploding the eastern bombs standing on force arrow) so you have to restore to go back.
3S: Not so hard as I expected, and definitely easier than 1W. I figured out immediately that the only way to open the doors would be killing the constructs and releasing the pp, but I was a bit disappointed in finding out that ALL 5 constructs need to die with bomb. The first time I "killed" a contruct corpse with the block (since 4 constructs are enough) and I had to redo it.

Demos attached.

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Xindaris
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1E: If you place the decoys right you can destroy two of the tarblobs with your first two moves of the teleblock. All you have to do is place the first decoy, then put the second decoy where the first potion was, then the third decoy where the second potion was, then the fourth decoy where the third potion was. The teleblock is deliberately placed so that it's in perfect diagonal alignment with all four spots you'd want to destroy to instantly break the entirety of each tarblob instead of having to hit it twice in two different places. I like that it can be done without decoys but I feel like that solution is too tedious to make a challenge.
The disarm token isn't actually for the player; it's a crude workaround so the teleblock won't disappear when it tries to teleport onto the same tile as a decoy's sword. This specific teleblock activates that disarm token twice in the turn instead of using the "Player weapon on/off" scripts that a regular teleblock uses. (Basically it removes the player's weapon (and in this specific case decoys' weapons also) so it can appear on the weapon's tile, then puts things back like they were before it started moving)

1S: The intended solution is actually to use briar (which is freed using the decoy's sword) to open the first couple of arrows, but I like your solution too. Also the originally intended way to open each passage is with the briar like that; I'm curious if you've been placing the decoy or something else to do it instead?

2S: I'll add green doors so you can only get to the secret room after clearing, whoops. Other than that I've checked every possible combination of state post-conquering to make sure there are no other backtracking issues, though traversing this room post-conquer is slightly more challenging than average.

3S: You have to get rid of all the corpses, but the script doesn't care how you do it. I think you may have misinterpreted, which is my fault; what it actually does is check both whether the pressure plate is up and whether there are any constructs in the "current play field", both only on turns divisible by 30. Is there some way I should have hinted at that peculiarity of the behavior or do you think I should change it in some way?
Alternatively, you may have found a weird bug in the way the game detects whether or not constructs are present.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-10-2016 04:05 PM]

Red-XIII
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File: demos.zip (10.6 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

Xindaris wrote:
1S: The intended solution is actually to use briar (which is freed using the decoy's sword) to open the first couple of arrows, but I like your solution too. Also the originally intended way to open each passage is with the briar like that; I'm curious if you've been placing the decoy or something else to do it instead?

2S: I'll add green doors so you can only get to the secret room after clearing, whoops. Other than that I've checked every possible combination of state post-conquering to make sure there are no other backtracking issues, though traversing this room post-conquer is slightly more challenging than average.

3S: You have to get rid of all the corpses, but the script doesn't care how you do it. I think you may have misinterpreted, which is my fault; what it actually does is check both whether the pressure plate is up and whether there are any constructs in the "current play field", both only on turns divisible by 30. Is there some way I should have hinted at that peculiarity of the behavior or do you think I should change it in some way?
Alternatively, you may have found a weird bug in the way the game detects whether or not constructs are present.

1S: At first I tried to use every possible combination of decoy-construct-gentryii to put a gentryii in the alcoves but I don't think it's possible.

2S: I think there are still problems here, I can exit South with the room uncleared, and I can clear it and exiting both North and South the first time without using the momentum block, see attached demos. The intended way to access the secret room is really nice.

3S: I'm not sure what you should do here, to me a tiny hint clarifing my misunderstanding would be nice, but it's not strictly necessary, you should listen to some other player too.

1S1E: Once again, I think I broke the room.

____________________________
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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 07-04-2016 12:54 PM]

Xindaris
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I just hadn't uploaded the version with the green doors in 2S yet; I have now. In the current version your "leave south uncleared" demo is corrupted and ends with Beethro dying to a construct.

Thanks for poking 1S1E so much; these leaks never even occurred to me. I've now also added an orb that locks the player into the room if the bombs explode. It shouldn't have any effect on the intended solution. Also anticipated "pushing a block from past the door" false solution and added a lockable arrow and moved one powder keg's position to hopefully plug that too.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-06-2016 07:16 PM]

Red-XIII
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1S1E: I'm afraid there's still something wrong, see attached demo. Since I still don't know the intended solution I suggest you to keep trying to fix it without telling me what you had in mind, so that I'll keep trying it until I do it properly.

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There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
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Xindaris
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Well, that demo tells me one of my assumptions made when building this room was wrong. I've uploaded a new version with a fundamental change that should make the intended solution necessary.

I also moved the orb slightly because I wasn't sure if the different pit arrangement relative to the briar was changing the timing a bit.

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Red-XIII
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File: BSL Exit Garden 1S1E Victory.zip (3.3 KB)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

Ok even if I didn't use the momentum block I believe this is close to the intended solution, right? If so, I really like it!


____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

Xindaris
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Yeah, that's pretty close. The momentum block is just for placement convenience so you don't really have to use as many teleblocks. The "full" intended solution is to

I think I may add a challenge to use 1 less powder keg (by throwing one into the pit) based on your clever use of diagonals there, too.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-07-2016 07:28 PM]

Red-XIII
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File: BSL Floating Antechamber 1N1W Victory.zip (3.9 KB)
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License: Public Domain

Floating Antechamber 1N1W: I still don't use the northern plates, though it was really tough to manipulate the momentum block this time. I think it's an interesting solution.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
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-33th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 07-10-2016 12:26 PM]

Xindaris
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Ehh, I still don't much like it. The Intended Rules for the "finish button" in the gravity block section of 1N1W and 1N2W are:
-Momentum block can't push the button that unlocks the conquer token arrow.
-Gravity block might leave the button after pushing it, but after doing so cannot come back to push it again.

I think I've found a configuration of arrows and orthosquares that should properly enforce those intended rules, so I'm going to upload a new version with that implemented in each room. Also I've moved the conquer token in those rooms so it isn't on the same tile as an arrow to please people who hate seeing tokens on arrows.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-10-2016 09:58 PM]

Red-XIII
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File: BSL Floating Antechamber 1N1W Victory.zip (3.3 KB)
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License: Public Domain

I think you'll begin to hate me, I broke it again ^^'
I simply do the Southern part first, then the gravity block part.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

Xindaris
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At least you didn't break the above "rules".

I'm trying adding some orthosquares to the south section in the interest of making what I feel is a somewhat tedious solution like that not work. I added some similar ones to 1N2W but it's more complicated there because the momentum block sometimes has to move diagonally, but hopefully that room's interchange of buttons and doors in the middle will make it somewhat less exploitable to begin with.

EDIT:
Also, I have moved the previous Exit Garden 1W to be an Employees Only (post mastery) room, and replaced it with what should be a much easier puzzle based on simultaneous control of gravity blocks. It should also be not nearly as hard to enforce intended solutions as these two nightmare rooms in FA.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-13-2016 04:28 PM]

Red-XIII
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File: Room and demo.zip (114.2 KB)
Downloaded 47 times.
License: Public Domain

Floating antechamber: I'm pretty sure that my solution is no more doable.

Exit Garden 1W: Great idea to replace the room and put it in post-mastery section, I like a lot the new room. I believe what I did is intended but see attached demo just in case (what's the clone for?)

I also wanted to build a room using teleportation block, since I really like them. I copied the hold and left only the "employ level" and I build a room in 1S, are you ok with it?

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There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

Xindaris
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The clone is a leftover from the old 1W I forgot to delete, derp. I'll get rid of him whenever I do the next update.

Your room looks good to me, I haven't attempted to solve it yet.

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Xindaris
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New version uploaded with that one clone removed, and I went on and copied Red-XIII's level into a place in the postmastery zone, to be properly organized later.

In other news, begging for another couple of testers who get to the end of the hold proper and can give opinions on some salient things like the final room, Exit Garden's secret room, whether the "western" branch of Floating Antechamber is too arcane, etc.; as well as anyone who wants to make another room for the postmaster area.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-14-2016 10:59 PM]

Bent
Level: Delver
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File: Demos.zip (11.4 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

I've played through the hold up until Floating Antechamber, and will probably be playing through the rest later. So far I really like it! The blocks are very nicely designed, and the puzzles has been interesting and fun.

I haven't read closely through this tread, both to avoid spoilers and because I'm lazy, so this might be repeating what others have already said, but anyway here's some comments on specific rooms:

Choice Annex Once South was a bit of a mess, I did not need to use any of the tunnels, nor the two leftmost gravity blocks to clear it – and can't see why I would need any of these things either. I have included my victory demo of that room in a zip file attached to this post.

In Gravity Foyer 2S one of the gravity blocks disappeared under my sword, and then reappeared when I moved away. A demo of this happening is included in the zip.

I solved Momentum Attic Twice East without having to use the momentum block at all. My demo of this is included in the zip.
Also, embedded into the hold is a demo both showing the location and solution of this (secret) room. That's probably not ideal...

Lastly, and this might be just a matter of personal taste, I found the room Once North Once West in Momentum Attic to be visually unappealing compared to the rest of the hold, and I think it's because of the irregular shaped corner in the top left of the room. Because the rest of the walls in the room, and also most of the walls in the level, are perfectly straight, that jagged edge just seems out of place to me.

Insoluble
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File: Blockerture Science Laboratories.demo (20.6 KB)
Downloaded 47 times.
License: Public Domain

It's been a while so I started this one over again from the beginning. It's super fun! Demos for everything I've played are attached. A few comments bases mostly on the new stuff.

Some rooms I never conquered before because they are secret rooms:

Entry Hall 2N1W: I did this one using only two blocks. Intentional?

Gravity Foyer 1S2E: I'm pretty happy with my solution here. I managed to do it without having to do any counting

Teleportation Basement
These are pretty neat and I like the rooms you came up with for them. The aesthetics of this level are terrific.

1W: Consider moving the checkpoint more to the middle of the room. The first push is mandatory anyway, so there's really no need to checkpoint it. This isn't a big deal though since this rooms is fairly short.

2W: I thoroughly enjoyed this one.

2N: Fun secret. The tokens on pressure plates are extremely hard to read though. please consider changing these out in exchange for an arrow-token-arrow sequence. I actually thought I was stuck for a bit at the end because i didn't see the token to re-arm myself.

1N: I think I just don't really understand how these work well enough. Why am I not able to push a block from (28,27) diagonally on to the plate when standing at (27,28 Is it that I can't push the blocks if they are directly next to an opposing arrow?

1S: Please consider changing the tokens on top of arrows for an arrow-token-arrow combination.

1E: This wasn't as bad as it initially looked. The manipulation was a lot less fiddly than I thought it was going to be.


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Xindaris
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Bent--
Tunnels in Choice Annex 1S are unnecessary to the intended solution. They're a red herring, and the room isn't really supposed to be too hard in general. The western buttons are useful in that closing a yellow door that briar is on destroys that briar; I don't know whether it's possible to get a solution that only uses the western ones but I don't consider it a problem that they aren't strictly necessary, either.

Blocks disappearing under swords is a generally unsolvable issue for as long as DROD's scripting language lacks a "detect weapons" command. It's doing it in this case because it sees a one-use button under it and changes appearance to the appearance that pushes down buttons, then sees a disabled button (which is not counted as a button apparently) and changes appearance back. The "changing appearance back" commands necessarily include a "disappear" and "appear" command, and attempting to appear on top of a weapon makes the script delay until there isn't something in the way of appearing. I may be able to code some kind of workaround but it seems rare enough to not be worth the trouble here.
As a workaround for this specific room I'll just make it a multi-use plate instead.

Momentum Attic 2E: I wasn't aware that saying "show from title screen" actually made the demo pack in with the hold until very recently. I'll remove that. Let me know if you see anything else like that.
I don't consider the "no-block" solution a big deal because it's very obviously a lot more trouble than just putting the block on the button. Besides, I don't see any sensible way to compel the player to use the block there for this one.

MA 1N1W: 1W is actually a lot more jagged than this room. But if it really will look better maybe I could just replace some of that with more deep water and/or big rocks.


Insoluble--
EH 2N1W: That's intended, yes, and necessary for the challenge.

GF 1S2E: At least one other person came up with this solution, I think, and I love it. For some reason your demo made DROD crash a couple of times with the error...

Assertion error in line 1151 of .\Main.cpp: "!"Unexpected MID value.""

...But then it worked fine after that, and it doesn't look like anything the least bit error-causing is happening. WEIRD.

TB 1W: I'll add another checkpoint in the middle of the room.

TB 2N: There aren't any tokens on pressure plates, but I know what you mean. You've actually found an unintended solution (ALL rattlesnakes in this room are supposed to die to the bombs), which I think I'll have fixed now...

TB 1N: Basically, there's a difference between the push and the teleportation. The rules for pushing are essentially the same as those for a mirror, but after pushing it can teleport past things like arrows and pits. There's a reminder of this fact in Floating Antechamber 1N1E but if it's not clear enough from this level I can add something to clarify.

TB 1S: I've been trying to do that everywhere (in general, not just in this hold), but it just won't fit in the tight space here without altering the puzzle in a way I don't like. Anyway, the player has no choice but to step on these arrows and then can clearly see what weapon they've been given afterward.


New version uploaded with the changes mentioned above

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-15-2016 07:55 PM]

Insoluble
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Xindaris wrote: GF 1S2E: At least one other person came up with this solution, I think, and I love it. For some reason your demo made DROD crash a couple of times with the error...

Assertion error in line 1151 of .\Main.cpp: "!"Unexpected MID value.""

...But then it worked fine after that, and it doesn't look like anything the least bit error-causing is happening. WEIRD.

Hmm, you should probably send this to bug reports if you can reproduce it. Are you rocking build 6512?

Xindaris wrote: TB 2N: There aren't any tokens on pressure plates, but I know what you mean.

Gah, arrows sorry

Xindaris wrote: TB 1N: Basically, there's a difference between the push and the teleportation. The rules for pushing are essentially the same as those for a mirror, but after pushing it can teleport past things like arrows and pits. There's a reminder of this fact in Floating Antechamber 1N1E but if it's not clear enough from this level I can add something to clarify.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I think I was slowly coming to that realization. I don't think you really need to do anything to clarify this. This particular room is actually well set up for experimenting with the mechanic and discovering the rules on your own.

Xindaris wrote: TB 1S: I've been trying to do that everywhere (in general, not just in this hold), but it just won't fit in the tight space here without altering the puzzle in a way I don't like. Anyway, the player has no choice but to step on these arrows and then can clearly see what weapon they've been given afterward.

Fair enough! It's actually not all that big a deal in this room for the reason you mention.

I'll try to play through some more this week and give you feedback on the remaining levels.

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Bent
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Xindaris wrote: Tunnels in Choice Annex 1S are unnecessary to the intended solution. They're a red herring, and the room isn't really supposed to be too hard in general. The western buttons are useful in that closing a yellow door that briar is on destroys that briar; I don't know whether it's possible to get a solution that only uses the western ones but I don't consider it a problem that they aren't strictly necessary, either.

The western buttons would be useful, had I not had more than enough time as it is. I just played through the room once more, and found that in addition to not using the two leftmost gravity blocks, I didn't need the ordinary block at 25,4 either. For me, the difficulty in this room laid solely in figuring out that half of the elements are superfluous, and I don't think that makes for a particularly good puzzle...

Xindaris wrote: I don't consider the "no-block" solution a big deal because it's very obviously a lot more trouble than just putting the block on the button. Besides, I don't see any sensible way to compel the player to use the block there for this one.

Well, I found the unintended solution to be simpler to execute, although probably a bit more time consuming. Anyway, I think you could prevent this unintended solution, just by doing something like this:

Xindaris wrote: MA 1N1W: 1W is actually a lot more jagged than this room. But if it really will look better maybe I could just replace some of that with more deep water and/or big rocks.

Yes, but that room has jagged edges multiple places around the room, as well as a more “unstructured” look all around, which makes the room look more consistent overall. Anyway, I think Once North Once West looks much better in the new version.

Bent
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So, I think I have cleared every room currently reachable without using the editor (as it seems that there's no way to exit the Exit Garden yet?).

Xindaris wrote: In other news, begging for another couple of testers who get to the end of the hold proper and can give opinions on some salient things like the final room, Exit Garden's secret room, whether the "western" branch of Floating Antechamber is too arcane, etc.; as well as anyone who wants to make another room for the postmaster area.

While I thought the first of the western rooms in Floating Antechamber was fair enough, although a bit daunting at first, I can't say I liked the secret room: It just felt like a more chaotic, although not much more challenging, version of the original. Along with Choice Annex Once South it's the room I liked the least in the entire hold.

I loved Exit Garden, it felt challenging but fair, and was nice to look at. The same goes for both the final and the secret room.

In Exit Garden Once South Once East I was somewhat confused at first about the bombs, as I couldn't see any engineers or builders nearby. It is far from obvious that they disappear once the trapdoors are dropped, and I would suggest either mentioning this in a scroll near the start of the room, or have the commentator say something about it.

Insoluble
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File: Blockerture Science Laboratories.demo (27.7 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

Okay, just finished Momentum Attic. Demos attached.

The entrance: Is a solid demonstration of the mechanic.

1N: Was a bit annoying. I dislike rooms that I have to constantly re-do every time I have to pass through them. I like to explore around levels and bounce back between rooms and things like this make it extremely annoying to do so.

1N1W: Was not too difficult, but I had a lot of fun with it. It will be interesting to optimize. The token on an arrow and yellow door by the mimic is super hard to read. Consider stretching it out to arrow-token-arrow.

1W: Tokens on arrows by the entrance are a bit hard to read. Not user why you need a sword token at the end of the room or why it disarms me for some reason. I can see it having something to do with narative consistency and the weapon Beethro has, but it's honestly a bit confusing as is.

I'm glad you demonstrated this interaction of blocks not dropping trapdoors in the first level since I would have taken a lot longer to figure this out if I hadn't remembered it! I think this room is completely fair though given the fact that the mechanic has been shown before and the fact that it is clearly impossible to drop all trapdoors without something like this. In a couple of posts above you've mentioned your reasoning behind the mechanic.

Xindaris wrote: Yes, refusing to drop trapdoors when the player (or anything else) steps onto the trapdoor on the same turn as the block is pushed off is intended behavior, and (I think) necessary for at least a few puzzles. It's a product of my interpretation of how trapdoors work: They detect something "heavy enough" above them and fall after they no longer have something "heavy enough", but Beethro body-pushing a block off of a trapdoor I interpret as an exchange of "heavy enough" things that happens too quickly for the trapdoor to drop in between. It also has the convenient property that the player can't kill themselves by body-pushing a block off of a trapdoor, which I feel would be a bit of an awkward death to impose.

While I can kind of see this, I will say that this is somewhat contradicted by what happens with other elements in the game if something moves onto a trapdoor that was just vacated in the same turn. You can test this out with say clones and pushing and the trapdoors drop. It's all good though. It is your element to do with as you please and the interaction is adequately demonstrated early on.

1N1E: Fun room.

1E: I liked this one too. The challenge wasn't too bad. The tokens by the entrance are hard to read and somewhat confusing again.

2E: Possible unintended solution? I didn't use most of the land provided that I think I was supposed to use as paths for the block. Also, since I have a pushing weapon, I don't need all those spike traps for the golems. Also, please add a check point or two.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 08-21-2016 10:10 AM]

Xindaris
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Okay, I'm uploading a version now that makes Bent's suggested change to MA 2E (which probably breaks Insoluble's unintended solution too because I don't know of any other possible unintended ones), and makes arrow-token-arrow display throughout that level, which I don't think breaks any of the puzzles or alters things significantly. Also, more checkpoints including in 2E.


The reason sword tokens disarm Beethro is that throughout the laboratories, tiled floor=oremites, so Beethro can only have a weapon on tiled floor if it doesn't have any metal in it. It's something CubeOS says right in the first room of the hold:
"Please put away all metal items before stepping on the Blockerture Science Metal Eating Bug Infested Floor Tiles."
Non-tiled floor = no oremites, which is why Gravity Foyer, Floating Antechamber, and certain small parts of other levels have Beethro wielding a sword throughout. The Garden's "tiled floor" is considered to just be grass for the purposes of this, but I don't feel that's particularly confusing.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-21-2016 03:49 PM]

Nuntar
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Insoluble wrote: While I can kind of see this, I will say that this is somewhat contradicted by what happens with other elements in the game if something moves onto a trapdoor that was just vacated in the same turn. You can test this out with say clones and pushing and the trapdoors drop.

But that isn't parallel, since you can't body-push clones, or (as far as I can think) any element that drops trapdoors. Weapon-pushing is irrelevant, since if you have your weapon on the tile of a clone, and push, Beethro bumps the clone and then it gets pushed -- he doesn't himself move onto the tile that turn, trapdoor or not.

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Xindaris
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Really my strongest defense for the trapdoor+body-push behavior is just that it makes for much more interesting puzzles than having the trapdoor drop under whoever body pushes it, at least as far as I can tell.

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Insoluble
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Nuntar wrote:
Weapon-pushing is irrelevant...

False. multi pushing is a well established thing. It's pretty easy to have Beethro move onto the same tile a clone just vacated in the course of one turn. I'm happy with just going with the "it makes for interesting puzzles" justification. As long as it's clearly established up front, which it is.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 08-21-2016 07:38 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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That's still a different case: entity 1 pushes clone off trapdoor, trapdoor drops, entity 2 pushes Beethro onto where trapdoor was. With clones and pushing, I don't think you can recreate the case relevant to Xindaris' blocks, where entity 1 causes the clone to move off the trapdoor and Beethro to move onto it, all during its own turn.

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50th Skywatcher

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1638
Registered: 09-04-2014
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Sure it's not exactly the same because of sequence order and all that. But it's the closest analog that currently exists. To call it irrelevant is a bit silly. My intuition leans towards the closest existing mechanics in which trap doors drop whenever the right type of entity moves off of them regardless of whatever else is happening in tat turn. Like I said though, I'm fine with Xindaris's design decision.

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Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding:

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
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Hi, hasn't been an update in a while here has there?

I'm pretty sure there are on real architectural/puzzle/etc. changes to this update, but the entire first level now has the "robot voice", voiced. If anyone has an opinion on how it sounds, how understandable the words are, etc. I'm open to them although I may be stubborn and not actually change it. Still the rest of the levels' vocals on that end to go, as well as hopefully finding a Beethro to speak his few lines during that time.

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109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 04-24-2017 11:36 PM]

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1638
Registered: 09-04-2014
IP: Logged

File: Beethro lines.zip (275 KB)
Downloaded 53 times.
License: Public Domain

Okay, here's an attempt at doing some of the Beethro lines on level 1. It's not really all that great, but hopefully it motivates some other folks to give it a go!

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Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding: