mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
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I'd like to hold a post-mortem for GatEB. We did this for JtRH and TCB, and we talked about doing this for Gunthro a while back but didn't get around to it yet. So, since there's no time like the present, I'm just putting this out here so we can get started. I'd like to request each of the individuals who worked on some aspect of GatEB provide answers to the following questions here in a post (if you don't mind). It's probably easiest to quote the below text, then yank the quote tags and fill in your answers. You can fill in whatever you want, or even provide any other discussion that matters to you.

Anyone is welcome to contribute their own questions that they think it would be constructive or insightful for the dev team to answer. I'll provide my own answers sometime this week.

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Your name, and what you did for GatEB (own words).

One thing you were happiest with during the development process, and why.

One thing that didn't turn out like you wanted, and why.

Is there anything about developing the game that you didn't expect?

What did you learn from developing GatEB?

If you can think of something, an anecdote from development that was poignant, interesting, indicative or funny.

Would you [help] develop a computer game again? If so, what, if anything, would you do differently?


____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 08-04-2012 11:03 PM]

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 789
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I have two questions to contribute.

How did lessons from working on JtRH and TCB impact working on GatEB?

and

How did the previous experience helped to smooth out the difficulties and unexpected events of making the new game?

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

slimm tom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1234
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Your name, and what you did for GatEB (own words).
I'm Tom Brouws, and I mostly did playtesting, both in earlier and later stages of development, and I also did some brainstorming and various miscellaneous things, such as recording demos for the title screen.

One thing you were happiest with during the development process, and why.
What I loved about the development process was the way everyone worked together on the various story aspects of the game, devoting their free time on transforming the very raw material we had (Frogs & Mice) into an installment fitting in the DROD world and story. There's someone in particular who has invested a lot of time and care unto this process, and that's forum member and DROD veteran Jacob. He took care of a huge portion of the transformation, and I don't think the game would be anywhere near its current state if it wasn't for his involvement. It's great to have someone like him on the team, and it shows how DROD really is a game for and by the community.

One thing that didn't turn out like you wanted, and why.
I would have liked to invest more time into development, but the lack of free time made that very difficult. This was an issue I think everyone working on GatEB was experiencing, and we had a couple of periods where nothing was really happening on the project. Luckily everyone came back to work on it when they had the time, and as we approached completion, things were getting done much quicker than before.

Is there anything about developing the game that you didn't expect?
The amount of testing and polish that goes into elements that seem very small. There were a couple of things that came up during development, which took a long time to get right. There were a lot of unexpected complications with the super-secret bonus level, for example, and much time went into making that work right.

What did you learn from developing GatEB?
I guess I learned that you shouldn't be satisfied too quickly. Questioning a design decision over and over again often leads to a better outcome, and even if you get tired with something because you can't get it right, keep working on it and eventually everything will fall into place. And if it doesn't, don't be afraid to let go of an idea entirely.

If you can think of something, an anecdote from development that was poignant, interesting, indicative or funny.
At one point after the game was released Schik posted that he basically coded up transparent tar, and if it was OK to include it in a future patch, but if it wasn't it wouldn't be a big deal. I loved Mike's reaction, he was really surprised (and delighted), and said it was definitely OK to add.

Would you [help] develop a computer game again? If so, what, if anything, would you do differently?
Yes, I would! I'd like to get more involved in the discussions that are going on and give my opinion more often. I felt I did not do this as much as I wanted when working on GatEB.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
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Only thing I'd like to say is that if the respondents can think of multiple interesting answers to questions that say "one thing" or similar, please post them all.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1916
Registered: 12-09-2004
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Your name, and what you did for GatEB (own words).
Larry Murk (larrymurk) I designed several levels.

One thing you were happiest with during the development process, and why.
Being part of the development team. It's great to work among a group of intelligent, talented people.

One thing that didn't turn out like you wanted, and why.
I was bummed we lost the Frogs and Mice story and graphics. That said, I did like how the game ended up having Beethro telling the story to the kids.

Is there anything about developing the game that you didn't expect?
How much work goes into developing a quality game. I keep thinking, "We've got to be done.." but the progress bar will move in its slow methodical manner no matter how much I beg to see that 100%.

What did you learn from developing GatEB?
I'd have to say more than anything I learned more about Jacob. I designed some levels then waited/begged for everyone to get the darn game done. Jacob not only designed several levels, but when the project stalled he lit a fire under everyone's butts. He took a major role in converting the story and made sure everyone kept aware of what needed to be done. Thanks to Jacob. Awesome effort dude!

If you can think of something, an anecdote from development that was poignant, interesting, indicative or funny.
I thought 'leaking' the fake Frogs and Mice development board for April Fools was hilarious.
Fake Board

Would you [help] develop a computer game again? If so, what, if anything, would you do differently?
But of course!

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 08-03-2012 02:00 PM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Your name, and what you did for GatEB (own words).
Mike Rimer. I was the director/producer. I also did coding, though not as much as on previous games. I also produced various assets, such as sound effects, some art, and mastering voice work.

One thing that didn't turn out like you wanted, and why.
I'll answer this question ahead of the next one to provide some context. Gunthro started out as a project being funded by Garage Games. At the time, the game wasn't about Gunthro. GG loved DROD and wanted Caravel to make a DROD-like game for them, but we wanted to retain clear exclusive ownership of the DROD IP. So, we needed to create the game with a different world, story and characters. Erik came up with using the "Frogs and Mice" epic as our backdrop, and work commenced in earnest.

All of this is actually turning out fine, so what's the problem? Well, just over halfway into the project, two or three critically bad things happened. GG said they were reorganizing, and there was some collateral damage. Part of that was that they had to cancel funding for F&M. At the same time, Erik wanted to move on and work on other personal projects, so he sold his share in Caravel Games to me. On top of that, some of our dev team were starting new chapters in their lives, and they had to leave the Caravel dev team. And the current art assets were in an unusable state. What this meant for F&M was that the project was left in limbo.

One thing you were happiest with during the development process, and why.
For me, the development and release of Gunthro is a story of redemption. At 60-70% done, it could have been abandoned forever. I was so happy to see a strong community team form and help finish the game. The end result wasn't perfect, but it was still really good -- much better than I could have hoped for. This team of individuals put the DROD game engine in a good position for us to start working on The Second Sky.

Is there anything about developing the game that you didn't expect?
I didn't expect the excellent work that Jacob and TFMurphy put into polishing the game. They didn't need to do all the work that they did. They both not only focused our efforts to improve the story and game elements, but they created a bunch of extra content that made what we ended up delivering so much more satisfying to players. Everyone else on the team contributed too, so I can't overstate how much each individual did to make the game shine.

What did you learn from developing GatEB?
From the above experience, I learned to trust the goodness that is present in our community. We have a group of incredibly talented individuals, and allowing people to play to their strengths is what sets a creation apart. I'm going to trust in that goodness as we work on The Second Sky, allowing the community to be closer to the development process, and let individuals participate when they have something to contribute.

If you can think of something, an anecdote from development that was poignant, interesting, indicative or funny.
With Jacob and TFMurphy driving so much of what went into the release, I was often working as a helper instead of a leader on various aspects of the game. This allowed me to observe our development process from a different perspective.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Erik come back to contribute portrait art to the game. Also, Eytan returned to iron out some final story details during beta. Even Clayton made contributions near the end. I think it was all for the love of the game, and I respect them for that.

Would you [help] develop a computer game again? If so, what, if anything, would you do differently?
Absolutely! I'd like for us to be more transparent about the development process. In the past, while we worked on, say, JtRH, some players expressed a preference to not know what game elements were being added to the 2.0 engine. In the gaming industry, it's extremely unusual to not want to hear about what features are going into an upcoming game title. However, the DROD experience is so focused on the game elements. Revealing a new game element might be considered by some as analogous to spoiling a plot twist. So, I can kind of see where they were coming from. Still, I want us to share more (non-story-spoilery) details about DROD 5.0 as development progresses, and I hope the community doesn't mind.

How did lessons from working on JtRH and TCB impact working on GatEB?
Ooh, this is a tough one. The work on Gunthro wasn't anything like for JtRH and TCB, so we had to learn many lessons from scratch.

How did the previous experience help smooth out the difficulties and unexpected events of making the new game?
Okay, so it wasn't all that bad. We had built successful games before, and we had confidence that we would finish if we just kept going. We were able to adapt. We had previously learned that it's best to keep things as simple as possible (but no simpler!) in order to design something that works and is easy to build off of. This philosophy ultimately made this project a success.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 08-04-2012 11:38 PM]

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
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I did virtually nothing, yet my name appeared in the credits, so maybe I should say something.

From where I sit, everything looks excellent w.r.t. how Caravel designs, tests, and releases software (markets is another issue entirely).

My involvement was merely in entering a random contest and having some of my prose selected for level text, which doesn't really count toward design or anything. I appreciate the credit, nonetheless, more because I love the game than because I care if anyone knows I participated in it.

I am always interested in supporting Caravel Games, and I try to assist in all avenues open to me of which I am aware. The main two limitations which prevent me from seeking additional means of contributing are: time (which should free up late this year following my degree), and the quality of my relationship with some of Caravel's other staff and assistants.

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I just beat GatEB tonight and I saw the nice things Mike said about me which shamed me into posting here.

Your name, and what you did for GatEB (own words).

My name is Neil Frederick, and I did some very early level design for Frogs and Mice, well before it became GatEB. I left the development team pretty early on...in February 2008, according to the private message board. I was getting very busy with work, but the real reason I quit was that I was burned out on DROD. Over 4 years later, I'm refreshed enough to play through the final release and maybe try my hand at more level design...

I made most of the original rooms in Bractea Town. Looking over the last version of the level I submitted, almost everything I made is still in there. The Entrance was very skimpy (story stuff often came last), and at the time I quit, you still couldn't place soldiers on shallow water, so 1N 2E and 3E had plain floor instead of shallow water and thus didn't really work yet. What is now the secret room at 2S 3E used to be at 2S 2E, which is someone else's room (not sure whose, maybe Jacob's). Honestly, I was astounded at how many of these rooms were mine--I only recognized 1E, 1N 2E, 3E, and 2S 3E. I'm especially sheepish that the other secret room at 2S 2E is how I originally designed it...because I totally forgot how to beat it when I came across it while playing through GatEB. Apparently that was also a non-secret room at first but Erik complained it was way too hard, so I made 1S 2E in its place.

I made most of the rooms in what is now Skondusk Marshes as well...actually, all of them except for the story room and the secret room at 1S 1E--Erik added the story room and I believe Larry added that secret room. 1E was meant to be an easier version of one of Adam's TCB rooms, so most of that credit to him. (Or Mike--I used to always mix up which one of them did which TCB rooms.) I don't think these were changed much from my original designs.

I'm pretty sure that's all I did on level design before I quit. In looking through my old posts, I was pleased to see an issue I brought up way back in 2007 regarding the player being able to swim/hide in shallow water, but was dismissed as not an issue, was revived in 2010 when it turned out to actually be an issue. Heh, I guess I feel better now about my contributions--at least, it's more than I thought I had done.

One thing you were happiest with during the development process, and why.

Probably being able to work closely with Erik again. He's still the only person on the DROD dev team I've met in person (even if it was only in the past year), but that's only because he lives somewhere I've been sent for work. If I ever get sent to where Mike or Schik live, you can be sure I'll be trying to meet up with them for dinner.

One thing that didn't turn out like you wanted, and why.

My participation, I suppose. I especially should have come back to help with final testing.

Is there anything about developing the game that you didn't expect?

I was surprised when it shifted from F&M to GatEB, but other than that I wasn't involved enough.

What did you learn from developing GatEB?

If you're going to volunteer to work on something, be sure that you're willing to commit to it.

If you can think of something, an anecdote from development that was poignant, interesting, indicative or funny.

Early on, I successfully argued that since Frogs and Mice was much more "realistic" than DROD, in that the original design was based on real Earth creatures, we shouldn't have platforms over pits. Instead, if we wanted to use platforms, they should only be on water. Obviously, when the switch to GatEB happened, this wasn't necessary any more, but it looks like the level designers kept this philosophy. (I don't know how much of the level design was complete before the switch, though.)

Would you [help] develop a computer game again? If so, what, if anything, would you do differently?

Yes! I wouldn't quit.

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 08-14-2012 04:22 AM]