da rogu3
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New version.

Changes:
- new introduction level
- 1:1N2W changed a bit
- 2:2S1E redesigned room to also require snake timing
- 2:1S1E fixed US
- 3:En fixed US
- 3:1S tightened up the timer

All the level descriptions are blank atm. I still need to create the story, and decorate the levels a bit more.

I'm also considering removing 1:1W (first puzzle room) - I literally spent 20 minutes trying to beat it when playtesting the hold now, whereas I whizzed through every other room in under a minute. I can understand other people's frustrations now!

Edit: removed 1:1W, and replaced it with a more appropriate introductory puzzle room (requiring snake manipulation in all 4 directions)

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-25-2011 10:59 AM]

Penwielder
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This time I've only included the demos which I think would particularly interest you.

I'm particularly amused that my old demo of 1:1N2W still works, having seen the changes to the room. (But it's not like it was a US or anything.)

Comments on the demos included:


____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

da rogu3
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Click here to view the secret text

×1:1W: I had some trouble with the south one. See demo.
I'm not sure what you mean. Was it too tedious to get the south one?
2:2S1E: It took me a while to get a right answer to the snake part. The cracked walls were a bit distracting, I think.
Your solution was much more precise than mine, I only used one loop . And I might make it either all broken wall or all secret wall, so it's a bit more consistent.
2:1S1E: Had to rework my solution slightly for the shorter rattler or longer bridge or whatever exactly the change was. It turned out okay.
Ugh, still a US. I prefer the solution to require using the loop and timing the snakes correctly.
3:En: See demo.
Ouch! I really want to fix this without taking the golem out. Looks like I'm running out of options though..
3:1S: This wasn't so annoying now that I somewhat know how to handle the rattler. Certainly not as loose as before, though, which is good.

Fixing unintended solutions is certainly much more difficult than I thought!

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-25-2011 09:08 PM]

Penwielder
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Replies to the above:


____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-25-2011 09:45 PM]

da rogu3
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In 1W it's also possible to just lure the south one using the same method as the west one, by going in the same row as it. I think I'll just shorten the long snake, since using it's body seems to be harder (and that trick is never actually used anywhere else in the hold)

For 3:1S3:En, if I move the opening up one square, I can still do the US, and if I remove the opening, it makes the golem useless as a red herring since it would be impossible to even considering bringing it to the lower area. Hmm. The main issue I have with removing the golem is that it makes the room more straightforward and simpler to solve, in comparison to rooms in earlier levels.

Edit: typo fixed

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-25-2011 10:49 PM]

Penwielder
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3:1S: I just found a way too. How about this, then: having not moved the opening at all, put oremites at (29, 9). For neatness, you could then move the patch at (29, 12) to (29, 10).

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Zorglub
Level: Delver
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1: 1W: The south one was OK for me, I used the long snake folding on itself.
2: 1S1E: did not use the ww.

da rogu3
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1: 1W: The south one was OK for me, I used the long snake folding on itself.

I'm gonna make it shorter, so that going into [17,19] (or the squares right of it) is the only way to manipulate it into the south plate.

2: 1S1E: did not use the ww.

That's okay, I don't think it's needed for anything, I'm more concerned about eliminating the unintended solution that Penwielder found.

Edit: And btw, I'm running out of mod points so I can't immediately +1 everyone's posts.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-26-2011 11:57 AM]

da rogu3
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New version!

I'd say the hold is pretty much finished now. Now there's just polishing, and fixing any other USs (if there are any left).

There's not really much of a story here. I'm not sure whether I should include a proper plot. What's everyone's opinions on having a story? This is a relatively short hold, and I want to make it somewhat rewarding.

Changes:
-tweaked 1:1W
-new secret room
-fixed US 2:1S1E / 3:En
-filled in all the level descriptions

Edit: Oh, and I've removed all of the demos except 2:1S1E and the secret room.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-28-2011 03:49 PM]

Zorglub
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File: Z TP 3 The Entrance Victory.demo (1.4 KB)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

1/1W: Used the snakes cells to drive the south one south.
2:1S1E: I did not use the rattle. I killed it right away, then led the adder to the snake cell.
3:En: US is still there.

The last level is also named 3. Is this intentional.

Concerning stories, I'm not that much looking for them. For me the sense of story comes more with the feeling/decoration of the rooms.

da rogu3
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Zorglub wrote:
1/1W: Used the snakes cells to drive the south one south.
2:1S1E: I did not use the rattle. I killed it right away, then led the adder to the snake cell.
Oh dear. I think this was always possible from the start. I'm hoping that removing the broken walls, or putting a open red door at (21,20) should fix it.
3:En: US is still there.
I'm never gonna fix it at this rate. Adding another ormite patch somewhere around that area should work (I hope)

The last level is also named 3. Is this intentional.
Yeah, since it's pretty much the same room.

Concerning stories, I'm not that much looking for them. For me the sense of story comes more with the feeling/decoration of the rooms.
What was your opinion on the story here? I rushed it before I uploaded this version, I don't know if it works well or not.

Also, did you see the new secret room?

Zorglub
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Secret room: I did not use the queen and needed only one golem.


Concerning the story, I think it is OK. Only strange thing is that the last level has no text. I'd suggest either merging the last two levels (have the briar appear once you get close to the chest), or have a small text sich as : B approaches the chest, finally able to put his hands on the famous treasure, but...

da rogu3
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I'm gonna change the secret room, since your solution make it somewhat easier. I overlooked the bit about putting the goblin in the queen's place.

I tried to do it using only the roaches and spacing them using golem piles. I'm still one move short, but it may be possible.

I really doubt it (it would be more difficult than the intended solution) since I tried to make it so you'd need to delay the monsters by a few turns, as well as spacing them out.

Good suggestion for the story. And the reason I made 2 separate rooms is because I couldn't find a way of just making the briar appear on the square, and I wanted it to look like it had come from the other room. I might make the whole thing a cutscene, if that works better.

Edit: Just realised I've accidently removed the ormites near the second snake in 3:En (mabye by changing the floor or something) so the room is trivial, I'll get an update up soon.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-30-2011 06:06 PM]

Penwielder
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File: rogu3s Dungeon Demos-PW3.zip (3 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

Story:

Demos of the secret room and of 2: 1S1E attached. There's nothing wrong with the former, but you probably won't like the latter.

Regarding 3:En:


____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

da rogu3
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I knew about the 2:1S1E one, I think that was possible from the very start, only needing one snake! I've moved the open red door to (21,20) to fix it.

I've replayed 3:En the way you said. I swear I tried that ages ago, but could never pull it off the first time. (manipulating the goblin around the circle to be above the golem). Mabye I was better off removing the whole golem bit, since adding all the extra stuff makes it easier to tell that it's not the correct solution.

I was gonna post a new update today with quite a lot of changes, but I'll just go and fix 3:En first - and I'm taking a different approach this time, instead of messing around with the top bit, I'm changing the lower area.

Oh, and I'm glad you liked the story

Edit: Another rather interesting US to 3:En is using the snake at it's full length to block the goblin following you immediately. It requires a little bit of timing, but is a completely different approach to what anyone else has done.

Edit: I've just found so many more unintended solutions where you kill the snake immediately, place the golem in a certain location, and move back through the bottom trapdoors to make the goblin follow you (but about 8 squares behind)

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 05-01-2011 11:25 AM]

da rogu3
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New update!

The most significant change is to 3:En. I've given up trying to fix all the unintended solutions (there's too many, I even found some totally unique ways of solving the room differently). I've taken the easy way out and removed the whole golem and arrow opening bit. The solution might be a bit more straightforward now, but at least the player will solve it the intended way.

Penwielder
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File: PW-2 1S1E May 1.demo (1.5 KB)
Downloaded 47 times.
License: Public Domain

I like the improved decor on level three!

3:En: I was no longer able to use any golems in ways you wouldn't like.

2:1S1E: Demo attached.

____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

da rogu3
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Penwielder wrote:
2:1S1E: Demo attached.

Oh wow nice I was wondering why I originally put the open red door in the centre of the bridges. That must've been why!

I think that putting the open red door back should fix it, I'm just testing now to make sure.

Edit: btw I'm gonna remove the postmastery area in the next update, since it doesn't really add much, and I can use that puzzle room in my next hold. I'm gonna improve the story and writing a bit, then I'll update the 'final' version of the hold, hopefully ready to be submitted.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 05-02-2011 03:57 PM]

da rogu3
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New version. Changed 2:1S1E. This should be ready to submit to the holds board now, if no one finds any more USs.

Penwielder
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File: PW-2 1S1E May 2.demo (2 KB)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

I've never before used snake timing as much as I did in this demo. Nevertheless, it's still an unintended solution.

____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 05-03-2011 12:12 AM]

da rogu3
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Now that's impressive

I'm not sure if there's any easy way to get rid of it. I think the intended solution is easier (?), but this one looks like it was very frustrating to achieve (and takes much longer for optimisers). If I find a way to stop people doing that *without* putting too many elements in, then I'll update it.

Edit: And fixed! (it was easier than I thought)

I think if there's any other USs for that room, they would be so much harder than the intended solution that they are not worth fixing.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 05-03-2011 04:23 PM]

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
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Is 1:1N1W even possible?

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I'M IN SPACE!

da rogu3
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yeah haha
Which part of the room are you struggling with? You have to lure both snakes west, either by going into the same column as it (like in 1W), or being behind it while it is already moving west to make it continue in that direction.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 05-03-2011 06:20 PM]

Rat Man
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I was trying to get the snake to open the door for me. I didn't know I had to pure the other one. Let's give it another go...

EDITION: No, never mind. The other snake is unlurable until I get the red snake to open the door. So I'm still stuck.

____________________________
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[Last edited by Rat Man at 05-03-2011 06:28 PM]

da rogu3
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Okay, first of all do you have an in-depth understanding of snake movement preferences? If not, I really recommend you read about it and learn all of the rules, and play some larrymurk holds to practise. (knowing about snakes is generally a good skill to have)

If you do, then these hints should make sense:

The rooms really pick up in difficulty after that point, so I don't think you'll be able to manage them too easily tbh.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 05-03-2011 07:25 PM]

Rat Man
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That would be most useful if I could figure out how to

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Zorglub
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Penwielder
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File: PW-2 1S1E May 4.zip (3 KB)
Downloaded 47 times.
License: Public Domain

2: 1S1E is more fun every time I play it. I still don't really know what the intended solution is, but here are two more.

The former is an idea that took me a while to work out. At least I have to use the loop.

I thought the latter might be possible even when I first saw the room, but I haven't found the right approach at it until now. This one is probably less acceptable to you than any other US found so far in this room.

____________________________
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da rogu3
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Last 4 mod points gone

With the first one, I could fix it by making the adder 1 square shorter (I didn't realise that it could eat the wraithwing)

The second one really is clever. I never thought it was possible, I think changing the movement order of the wraithwing to move after the serpert should work.

Edit: Oh, and the indended solution is to get the 2 snakes in between the open red doors, facing each other.

Edit: Fixed and updated

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 05-04-2011 11:11 PM]

da rogu3
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I have now submitted the hold to the HAs. Any estimation on when it will get approved (a week, a month..)?