Tim
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Well, any day is a good to to start writing about strategy/puzzle games, so why not today? I've been playing so many of them that it would be a waste not to write about them. Note that I'm not a very good writer.

Pragmatica is a programming/logic game. If you've played Manufactoria then you can probably understand this one. Has much better graphics, fixed maps and is PC only.

In this game, puzzles consist of rooms populated by robots. These robots are pre-programmed, using conditions and actions. You start with very simple actions like turn left, right and reverse, but the list of actions will expand to things like picking up crates and destroying stuff.

The difficulty is quite interesting. It starts pretty easy but soon gets hard. So hard, that I can guarantee that you probably pull your hairs out while trying to solve some of them.

The reason to write about this game on a day like today (technically it's April 2nd here, but let's pretend it isn't in the US ) is to show you how to NOT make a puzzle game.

Why don't you give it a play and figure out why? Download link.

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Syntax
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Version 1.1 is out now which fixes some impossible to solve rooms due a glitch with bombs. Also has an extra level pack

Tim
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I'll wait until you get the confirmation on Coverup. And I'm not sure whether "Floor it" is possible.

It is reassuring to know that many reviewers doesn't finish a game before recommending them to others.

It's also familiar that people don't test their games properly before release. (I don't mind helping them if they asked.)

PS. Incidentally, I was that person who first wrote about Assassins in some other site.

EDIT: Even their latest map set has issues (small issues but completable). Disappointing.

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[Last edited by Tim at 04-06-2011 10:13 AM]

Syntax
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Wow... how did you know about my issues with Coverup?
The internet is such a small place

I was actually going to recommend Pragmatica on here 'til I saw your review. I think it's ok for "some other site" to recommend games they may not have completed - I certainly would have recommended this very early on as it looks extremely polished (and hence you trust basic testing has been done).

I ended up spending a good hour on coverup though before running out of tricks to make it completable (including "see robot" trigger which *almost worked*). Games involving tiles and logic are my forte so it is definitely disappointing to waste so much time to no avail. Then again, boyblue, larrymurk et al make impossible levels for me in DROD (rumours are though that they're not)

Fingers crossed they fix it!

[EDIT]

lol just checked "the other site". I'll continue the conversation there...

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[Last edited by Syntax at 04-06-2011 10:56 PM]

Tim
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Syntax,

If you have contacted them and they need our help, would you let me know about it? (I can't find any contact info.)

And if they don't want our help, perhaps we can make a game ourselves?

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HiVE
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Hello,

Thanks for your help in reporting the level issues in initial versions - we believe they're all fixed now.

What sort of help were you thinking of? If you'd like to check the current set of levels and report any inconsistencies you find, we'd greatly appreciate it - or, since you mention making games, if you develop anything with the MapMaker we'd be more than happy to list it on the website and include it in future versions. Let us know.

If you need it, the contact page is under Contact on the website. Our email address is mentioned on the Pragmatica/MapMaker page.

HiVE
wearehive.com

Tim
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Thank you for spending some time to reply here.

As I understand from the other thread you have already tested the levels again, and I've no doubt you've got it working this time (even though I'm not going to test it yet as I've somehow become somewhat busy with some other projects.)

Also thanks for your kind offer, but I'm not good in Game Maker. Besides, I've already released some well-received games under my own name, but I don't mind help testing if you do need any help (as long as they are slow games, though ).

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[Last edited by Tim at 04-08-2011 01:40 AM]

TripleM
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For what it's worth - having downloaded the game after the above issues were fixed, I'm finding this to be a very enjoyable game. The UI is a little awkward (having to click a few more times than I'd like to enter moves / set things running, not being able to go 'back a screen' when navigating through the main menu without exiting the program entirely), and it was strange that some of the conditions/actions weren't explained at all in the tutorial, but the puzzle side of things is excellent.

Definitely worth playing for those of you who enjoy problem solving and thinking a lot in general, like me

Currently stuck on Inspection - Roll Call.. I can get three crates done, but simply have no options left for that top right robot with or without using lights.. Don't think I want a hint yet though.

HiVE
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Tim; the MapMaker is part of Pragmatica - you start it from the 3rd option in the main menu. It contains everything you need to build a map, and you can test it live as you're working on it. No other software is needed, so if you do fancy making a puzzle or two, that's how - Game Maker is a different program altogether.

TripleM; great! We're glad you like it. To go back, you right-click or press C depending on whether you're using mouse or keyboard. This is mentioned in the welcome message, and appears on the title screen and most of the submenus (the white text on at the bottom-right) - however we do still get a few reports like this, so could you let us know why you think you might have missed it and if there's anything we can do to make it more prominent? We'll add a notice to the next version telling users that there are other symbols to discover in later levels - good point.

Good luck - we won't spoil anything (except to confirm that it IS completable), but if you do want a hint, let us know here or via our contact form. And if you'd like to make some levels, we offer the same advice - try the MapMaker! We'd love to see some user-generated content from puzzle enthusiasts.

That said, making maps WE can't solve is, for reasons of developer pride, strictly prohibited.

HiVE
wearehive.com

TripleM
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HiVE wrote:
To go back, you right-click or press C depending on whether you're using mouse or keyboard. This is mentioned in the welcome message, and appears on the title screen and most of the submenus (the white text on at the bottom-right) - however we do still get a few reports like this, so could you let us know why you think you might have missed it and if there's anything we can do to make it more prominent?

Hm good point, it does too. It doesn't on the Contracts or Inbox page, which is the only place I was needing it, so hadn't looked on the other pages.

I guess the main issue is that right clicking isn't something I've ever seen used before for going back - I would always associate this with the escape button, and since that works when you're inside a level, it was what I was trying in a menu screen (but all it does is let you exit).

Maurog
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By the way, TripleM, you do have the Advanced Toolbox option on in the Settings, right?

It helps a lot with the number of clicks needed to do stuff, I'm actually surprised it's not on by default.

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HiVE
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In that case, we'll change the Escape behaviour to only prompt for game-exit at the top-level title screen, otherwise to reverse menu depth like right-click...

The advanced settings are on by default as of version 1.11 (current) - we initially wondered if it might overcomplicate the tutorial to have the UI introduced by saying "click this OR this OR this to... " but it seems to be an improvement for all players, so it's definitely worth turning them on.

There's also an option to auto-open/close the program editor when you mouse into/out of it, which would probably speed things up. Also on by default in recent versions.

Out of interest, are these the only UI difficulties you're experiencing (funtional depth and right-click unknown), or is there anything else we can do to smooth things out? Do you often find yourself hitting the wrong key or expecting the UI to behave differently at a particular point? If so, let us know and we'll fix it. Good luck!

HiVE
wearehive.com

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[Last edited by HiVE at 04-09-2011 03:05 PM]

Maurog
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A few points:
- The game should not exit to main menu from inside a level, it should exit to the last open subfolder. So if I was playing an Industrial Hot Drinks level, then I should find myself in the Industrial Hot Drinks mail subfolder when I exit. This includes an Exit through the "You Failed" screen.

- To compensate for that, I would put an "Exit Game" button somewhere on the interface.

- It would be nice if the game would save an uncompleted level for you as well.

- I'm still not happy with you opening/closing the program area all the time. It looks completely unnecessary, and if you use the advanced tool box to pick a command, you will be stuck in editing mode until you rightclick, even if you have autoopen on. What I would do is move both the "close" animation and the "warning: live transmission" to AFTER you start running the actual program. When you're not running, it should be just permanently open for editing and ready to launch. When we terminate the program, you can use the "open" animation. And selecting which robot we program can then be done by clicking the appropriate light.

Or just... lose the "non-advanced" mode completely. It's a bad, bad mode. Get rid of it, and you free the right/left buttons for robot selection.

- Lastly, as long as we're here, there is no way to delete a programmer profile from in-game, you might want to add that. And naming your profile something other than "Programmer N" would be nice, unless that's intentional.

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HiVE
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Big update, lots of changes, all of them good. Many user suggestions have been implemented and the whole thing is much cleaner and more accessible... we hope.

Try it at: wearehive.com/?&page_id=prag_download (v1.2)

Changes:
- The whole front-end UI is greatly simplified and more straightforward; no more separate program state, no need to right-click, ever. You can write and launch a program in as little as five clicks.
- Advanced/non-advanced mode is no longer an option - the selector box is enabled by default and the program number is shown in all states except for setting symbols.
- The overlay on the program display is now visible while running, as opposed to while editing, and is much emptier and less visible.
- Escape/Cancel now both backtrack in the menu up to the title screen, at which point they both open a "Quit?" box.
- There is now an 'EXIT' button in the bottom-left of the UI for the mouse - you can exit the game entirely with the mouse, without ever pressing Escape.
- You can now Right-click assigned symbols in a program to immediately clear them without needing to open the symbol selector.
- Every symbol in the advanced selection box is always in exactly the same predictable position.
- Full-screen is now a persistent option in the Settings instead of pressing F4.
- There is now a 'Faster Robots' option in Settings which increased their speed by 100%.
- Map rules (e.g. hazards/switch behaviours) are now explained by mouseover tooltips whenever they're active.

Regarding opening the contracts menu to the last contract, this would indeed be a nice touch, but the way the menu works doesn't allow it without a lot of internal changes. And the click-lights-to-jump-to-program suggestion is also excellent, but last time we tried it, everything broke and we had to roll it back completely. If it's suggested a few more times we might have another go, but that little piece of the UI is a horrible code nightmare. It used to be possible to individually assign different programs to different robots (instead if 1:1, 2:2, etc) which is what these lights were for - this was removed since it was judged to be unnecessarily complex, but the code which controls them is still very fragile.

Thanks again for all your suggestions. We hope you find the game a lot easier to get on with now.

HiVE
wearehive.com

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[Last edited by HiVE at 04-16-2011 07:59 AM]

larrymurk
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Hey there Hive person/people.

I've played through the 1.1 version and have completed all of the challenges.

Praise-
I like logic puzzles which this is.
I like programming. Programming robots is a great idea.
I think the story line is fun and well done.

Criticism-
The switches confuse me a little. You've got single press buttons (circles), toggle buttons (T on circle) and hold down buttons (upside down T on circle). I just don't know if there is any way to make them look more intuitive.
While we're at it, I'm usually not sure what pressing/ releasing the buttons will do between opening/closing exits and/or toggling hazards.

Unintended solutions-
I think the levels are pretty well created for the most part. I think I found a lot of unintended solutions not that that has to be a problem. Two examples from Devil in the Details. I solved Relay without ever picking up the crate. The convoy I just had If See Wall then Turn Right.

Map Maker-
Having a level maker is great. I have made one challenge already. Maybe I'll see if I can come up with a few more then I'll post them for you to enjoy.

Great, great job on the game!

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 04-16-2011 06:59 PM]

HiVE
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Thank you! Yes, please do, we look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Regarding the solutions in TD&D, although we do usually try to keep a balance between encouraging multiple solutions and making the puzzle specific enough that it can't just be rolled over, the two approaches you describe do feel like exploits, on reflection. We were aware of the Convoy one but not Relay - both have now been updated to prevent these solutions, but well done for finding them.

It was also possible to complete Metronomics with only [LIT > CONTINUE, WAIT] due to the timing, but we've changed that one too. Again, it's difficult to know when adding 'bonus' solutions how easily they'll be found!

We're glad you like the game. If you feel like letting any of your similarly puzzle-hungry friends know, please do - our only currency is player exposure.

HiVE
wearehive.com

Briareos
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HiVE wrote:
wearehive.com

Just a minor nitpick - the site name you post in your URL as well as in the text link above doesn't have a DNS entry:

C:\Windows\System32>nslookup
> wearehive.com
*** No internal type for both IPv4 and IPv6 Addresses (A+AAAA) records available for wearehive.com

> www.wearehive.com
Non-authoritative answer:
Name:    wearehive.nfshost.com
Addresses:  208.94.116.174
          208.94.116.142
          208.94.117.21
Aliases:  www.wearehive.com

Maybe you could nudge your hoster to add a CNAME for it?

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Tim
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Thanks for updating the game.

I'm currently playing other games but I hope that this game is getting the attention it deserves.

PS. I've modded you up, you should be able to post links in your posts now.

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Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
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I love this game! I don't see why people were hating on it before. It was released before it was properly tested. That there is a glaring problem, but it doesn't make it a bad game. Sure, that version was unplayable, but it wasn't a fatally glithcy game -- it's simply a game that was released too soon.

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skell
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Rat Man wrote:
Sure, that version was unplayable, but it wasn't a fatally glitchy game

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Rat Man
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Rat Man wrote:
Sure, that version was unplayable, but it wasn't a fatally glithcy game -- it's simply a game that was released too soon.

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larrymurk
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File: larrymurkarmy.rar (2.3 KB)
Downloaded 41 times.
License: Public Domain

Here are seven contracts I made with an Army theme.

I've played all 7 and they can all be solved.

See if you find any unintended solutions or improvements.

Unzip and put in the maps folder to play them.

Rat Man
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I couldn't find the level editor. Didn't look for it, though because I didn't realize there was one. And what are .rar files? Everyone's uploading them these days! I think they have to do with programming, which would make them ever-so-fitting in an inconvenient, not-good-at-all sort of way.

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da rogu3
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Rat Man wrote:
And what are .rar files?

It's just like .zip, a way of compressing files. Most people use 7-Zip (which supports .rar and .zip) or a similar program these days to uncompress files.

Rat Man
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I don't know what program I'm using for that. This is the family computer. I'll try it.

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Rat Man
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Didn't work. And my dad doesn't like me to install stuff on the computer.

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Jatopian
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What, he can't check out 7-zip the way he checked out the forum?

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Rat Man
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This forum has nothing to do with making changes to his computer, he's really touchy about that, and I'm fed up with your attitude about my age. I've been thinking of leaving lately, since everyone here is making it no fun at all and I come to this forum for enjoyment.

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HiVE
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File: larrymurkarmy.zip (2.8 KB)
Downloaded 36 times.
License: Public Domain

Well, technically it was highly playable, just not entirely completable... though point taken.

Larry Murk: nice! We'll give them a run and see how they fare. If you have any feedback on the MapMaker, please let us know.

Rat Man: The MapMaker is the 3rd entry in the main menu. It'll take you straight to the MapMaker interface where you can start building a map or open an existing one from the file system, although you have to save to, and load from, Pragmatica's /mapmaker/ folder.

Here is Larrky Murk's level pack as a .ZIP file. It should open directly as a compressed folder in Windows.

Also, a few people mentioned trying Inspection and Devil & Details and other harder contracts, getting stuck, etc. Is anyone still stuck on these, or did you manage to complete them... or give up?

HiVE
wearehive.com

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[Last edited by HiVE at 04-20-2011 09:01 AM]

Banjooie
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Rat Man wrote:
This forum has nothing to do with making changes to his computer, he's really touchy about that, and I'm fed up with your attitude about my age.

Our attitude about your age is not 'You're 14, you don't know things'. I just want to make this clear. The attitude about your age is 'You're 14, stop telling us we don't know things.' This is a completely fair thing for us to say.

Not that this is even remotely related to the thread. If you /want/ to make some kind of thread berating us for not treating you like an adult I'd be okay with that, we could talk, there'd be mod points flung around, maybe we'd make some Portal 2 references, I hear that's trendy...?

Also I guess maybe we could teach you how to get a paper route to earn the money for your own computer. Is...is that a thing kids still do? Get paper routes?