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Radiant
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Danjen02 wrote:
I think it's safe to say that a level containing a self-cloning switch the player steps on will break the game.

Not necessarily. Officially, the game should hit the aforementioned object limit at some point, and stop spawning new players. In practice, looks like Stuart found another overload...

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04-03-2009 at 08:42 AM
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If you say so. :)

It's just that it seems in most of the bugged levels that they usually have little more than a cloner, a player, and do absolutely weird things.

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04-03-2009 at 09:33 AM
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Danjen02 wrote:
It's just that it seems in most of the bugged levels that they usually have little more than a cloner, a player, and do absolutely weird things.

Well, yes. But actually, most of the original crashes and overloads came from teleporters and explosions.

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04-03-2009 at 10:58 AM
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That reminds me of the Boom level that was included in First Mystery level. How exactly did that crash the game? Were the explosions treated as objects and accidentally get teleported or something?

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04-03-2009 at 08:22 PM
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Danjen02 wrote:
That reminds me of the Boom level that was included in First Mystery level. How exactly did that crash the game? Were the explosions treated as objects and accidentally get teleported or something?

Explosions are objects. IIRC the problem was either (or probably both) that a teleported object could end up in square 0, or that multiple overlapping explosions could end up with the wrong object pointer.

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04-04-2009 at 12:37 AM
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I haven't messed around with this for a few days, but here's a list compiled today. I still need to populate the Effect list and the Objects Created Mid-game list.

Stuff I speculate is in blue. As for rest of the stuff, I'm about 99% sure.

Tiles
Click here to view the secret text


Objects (that occupy squares)
Click here to view the secret text


Effects (objects that don't occupy squares)
Click here to view the secret text


Things I'm unsure about
Click here to view the secret text


Test 3 for Safes on Water becoming Dirt (in the unsure category) is a neat quirk; if an explosion occurs on a square undergoing this transformation, even though it will be enveloped by the explosion, the Dirt will be left unharmed!

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-14-2009 12:34 AM : Removed lasers from effect list]
04-04-2009 at 09:10 PM
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Danjen02
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Great list Kwakstur! :thumbsup

Kwakstur wrote:
Barrier, Mover, and Conveyor switches (all the round switches... coincidence?) create an invisible effect object that scans the level for things to change. I'm still uncertain why this is, but my best guess is that it has something to do with simultaneous switch hitting.
Other switches don't do this. This includes Untrap, Clone, Clone All, and Detonator.
My best guess is that the barriers, movers, and conveyors do this, since they change the state of all the given objects on the level at once. Cloner, untrap, clone alls, and detonators work slightly different since they have an effect when pressed.

So the difference would be a "do X" versus "change Y".

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04-04-2009 at 09:39 PM
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That was basically the observation I made that lead me to suspect simultaneous switch hitting. A while ago I wrote up a blurb about it to add in an edit to a previous post, but looking through the topic now I can see that I didn't submit it, and I remember why. The following is basically my research on it and how my theory developed. Warning, it's long because it's getting late and I don't feel like really going through the shortening-and-deleting phase. Pretty much everything I type starts at about this length. :-O
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-05-2009 05:33 AM]
04-05-2009 at 05:29 AM
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Uh-oh, this thread got stickied. Guess I'd better update the first post more regularly. :whistle

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Kwakstur wrote:
Yes, it's been done before, but dirt on a cloner switch is awesome.
The "hanging" dirt is a bug, which will be fixed for next week's release.

Danjen02 wrote:
Edit: Here is what I am talking about. When you push the crate onto the water, it transforms into ice, and during that time, the rock slides onto the rounded wall but curiously, no longer falls until you step near it.
This, likewise, will be fixed for the next release.

The Stew Boy wrote:
If a mover is moving an object but is blocked completely, and the obstacle is removed, the mover won't start moving again until something changes in the squares surrounding it
This would also be something to fix, however it turns out that the demos for several existing levels rely on this behavior. So I shall leave it in place for now.

The Stew Boy wrote:
Keep moving them around, especially downard. You should notice that some players are going outside the level, even through the steel wall. Once players go outside, you might notice some of the player sprites being replaced by slimeys.
This is a nice find. Turns out it's not actually an overload bug, but a placement bug (some objects essentially get placed in a null location). I've found an easy fix for this one, which is good because I don't like my games crashing.


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04-05-2009 at 11:53 AM
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Regarding Kwakstur's posts,

It is interesting to read back about this after all this time.

I should point out that multiple objects can occupy one square; in particular, explosions can overlap. Generally this situation does not persist for more than one tick, and it generally results in (violent) removal of the objects involved.

The reason that some switches spawn an object to do their work, is indeed for all of them to occur at the beginning (or end, same thing) of the object order. Basically, I don't want players to care about internal object ordering. For instance, if a switch is triggered twice during one tick, I want all objects to be affected equally (otherwise, you get weird stuff: place two rocks on an on/off wall; make two switches that are triggered simultaneously; now, the behavior of those rocks will depend on which object did the triggering, which is highly confusing). Movers muddle the issue, since a mover won't invert movement in mid-square.

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04-05-2009 at 12:03 PM
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Speaking of internal object timing, is that what the level Don't Try This at Home! relies on? I could never figure out how it worked...

Edit - I was just messing around trying to duplicate what you mentioned, and I foudn out how to spawn an invisible block. If you put a bomb on an on/off wall and push two buttons simultaneously, the bomb explodes instantly and leaves behind an invisible (steel-like) wall in the barrier's place.

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[Last edited by Danjen02 at 04-05-2009 07:58 PM]
04-05-2009 at 07:51 PM
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Danjen02 wrote: Speaking of internal object timing, is that what the level Don't Try This at Home! relies on?
Heh, you saying that finally got me to figure out how to beat that level! Woo!

A while ago, I made a level showing a similar trick, but never showed it. I guess the order of object-running is jumbled when stuff happens... but even then, it still manages to be consistent! Here's basically what it is:
Click here to view the secret text

It's the consistency that makes it so difficult to explain... It seems that when objects are generated and destroyed, one other object loses a bit of time.

EDIT: By the way, interesting stuff: I tried putting more players in various spots in that level, and I found that this only occurs when there is an odd number of players. Their placement has no effect on it (as long as they don't destroy a motion field).

[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-05-2009 08:41 PM]
04-05-2009 at 08:30 PM
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Danjen02 wrote:If you put a bomb on an on/off wall and push two buttons simultaneously, the bomb explodes instantly and leaves behind an invisible (steel-like) wall in the barrier's place.

I've had this happen, but hadn't actually tried to figure out what made it happen...

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04-06-2009 at 10:59 AM
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It only seems to happen when an object explodes, but other than the level I posted, I can't easily recreate it. I've had it happen when slimes explode, for example.

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04-06-2009 at 08:21 PM
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I can't remember exactly how, but it was frustratingly easy to create an invisible block in SubTerra II using what I remember to be a similar method. It happened to me several times when playing one of the main levels, and it annoyed the heck out of me because whenever I wasn't careful, I'd end up accidentally creating an invisible roadblock and couldn't beat the level.

It's been about a year since I last played ST II, so it's probably been fixed, but watching that demonstration reminded me of it.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-06-2009 11:10 PM]
04-06-2009 at 11:09 PM
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IIRC, it was one of the early levels, and there was a devil on either side of a wall, and you dropped a rock on them to get past, but you had to time it so that you got the gem from them, and occasionaly it would explode and leave behind an invisible block.

(I'm too lazy to look up the level name, sorry.)

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04-07-2009 at 05:38 AM
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wonkyth
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I haven't checked, but that would probably be the Enemy tutorial level(called a very original "Enemies", I think). I haven't had this happen in the main levels, but it did cause some trouble when I was trying to create a daemon powered sorting machine. I think it has been fixed in the second most recent version, but I'm not absolutely certain.

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04-07-2009 at 11:06 AM
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Here's a rather obscure ST2 bug:
When there's two daemons moving keys around, strange things happen when a key lands on a daemon while it's moving another one. See the level for an explanation - after about 12 seconds, you should see the image of a red key 'stick' to the screen, while the key itself vanishes into thin air. Try enabling the other key's teleporters too - time it so that you're moving through the triggers upwards as the old key is moving upwards through the motion fields.. The images of the other keys should 'stick' to the screen as well.

This kind of thing can happen:

Note the daemon moving through the keys on the left.

[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 04-11-2009 08:07 AM]
04-11-2009 at 08:06 AM
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Another obscure ST2 bug:
Check the level attached or make a similar one. Start it, scroll down to the bottom, wait for the explosions to happen. Even before the timer runs out, you should see the occasional daemon explode into something other than that pink gem thing whose name escapes me. I've had them explode into 3x3 blocks of rounded walls, cracked walls, steel walls, see-through (laser) walls. Never anything other than walls though.
04-11-2009 at 10:43 AM
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ST1:
When an object is cloned which kills the player when adjacent (eg some sort of monster, does not include skulls), if the player is standing next to the cloning machine he will be killed, unless the monster is being cloned to the right.

Occasionally when a monster is killed by flowstone, the flowstone will not extend into the space left by the explosion (see level), until that space has been entered by another object, AFTER the flowstone tries to expand there first - ie, in the level, if you moved down into the space immediately after the explosion, the flowstone still wouldn't expand there, but if you move into the space a while afterward, it'll expand.

A seeker, if it has a direct horizontal/vertical route to a player, but is blocked by a tollsign, it's 'bouncing off' pattern is one square, two squares, one, two, etc.

Although you can only have a maximum of a 9999 gem limit, you can go above this (briefly) by moving continually across toll gates with gaps between them. Once you stop it'll then reset to 9999.

If the player dies while a message is being shown (not enough gems, exit is now open, hint boxes), the message stays on the screen.

If a laser is hitting a clonable wall (steel wall, glass wall, background, but not ruby or iceblock), and the wall is cloned onto a square which a second laser is passing through, the wall will seemingly continually explode until either the second laser is removed, or the cloner machine is removed. If the second laser is removed, the cloned object disappears but leaves behind a solid invisible object. Once the cloning machine is removed, the invisible object disappears and it becomes a normal empty tile - even though it should really be whichever wall was being cloned, as the laser shouldn't remove it.

When a monster moves onto a cloner button and gets trapped there, it continues activating the button indefinetely.

[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 04-12-2009 10:19 AM]
04-12-2009 at 08:55 AM
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Celtic Minstrel
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What about making a thread like this for ST2?
04-12-2009 at 03:24 PM
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I still haven't tried ST2 again yet (I'm waiting until the whole speed fix thing seems to have worked itself out), but here's my analyses/comments on the ST1 bugs:
The Stew Boy wrote:
When an object is cloned which kills the player when adjacent (eg some sort of monster, does not include skulls), if the player is standing next to the cloning machine he will be killed, unless the monster is being cloned to the right.
Actually, it seems that only works with Cryo Birds and Firedrakes. Wraithwings, Slimies, Spiders, and Seekers all kill you regardless of the cloner's direction.
A seeker, if it has a direct horizontal/vertical route to a player, but is blocked by a tollsign, it's 'bouncing off' pattern is one square, two squares, one, two, etc.
Seems to be because of its alternating horizontal-vertical preference system. After you said this, I investigated how this is controlled and it appears that it does not switch every time it moves, but rather every time it gets to decide how to move (so if it moves with horizontal preference onto ice, once it leaves it will have vertical preference regardless of how long the ice was).

I guess that, to speed calculations (or maybe to avoid it jumping back and forth indecisively between 2 players on opposite sides of it), if the seeker is directly above/below the player when it has horizontal preference (or vice versa), then rather than calculating whether to go up or down, it will just copy the direction it moved last turn (unless of course there's a wall there).
Although you can only have a maximum of a 9999 gem limit, you can go above this (briefly) by moving continually across toll gates with gaps between them. Once you stop it'll then reset to 9999.
A related (probably) observation: When you have less than 9999 and you're continuously entering toll signs, the gem quota displayed doesn't keep up with the real amount. As soon as you step off, the number will jump up.
[stuff about cloning walls into lasers]
o_O

That's strange. But actually, the wall behind the cloner doesn't need to be lasered, just the destination tile.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-12-2009 11:22 PM]
04-12-2009 at 11:20 PM
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Kwakstur wrote:
[stuff about cloning walls into lasers]
o_O
That's strange. But actually, the wall behind the cloner doesn't need to be lasered, just the destination tile.

Actually, on further testing, it seems that cloning anything into a laser creates that effect, except extending walls, rocks/gems/keys, elevators, balloons/bombs, safes (which explode twice), dynamite (which also has a weird effect that the cloning machine explodes as well, as if there was a dynamite there), crates/pillows/ice blocks, movers, and monsters (including poltergeist).

Also, an effect I just noticed is that when a laser is facing upward into a ruby, any gem directly on top of that ruby will not roll off. This only works if the skull is directly below the ruby directly below the gem, it does not affect gems when the laser has been deflected.
Another effect that I discovered is that only one skull can pass a laser through a ruby at once, and also that a laser cannot pass through its own generating ruby more than once, although other lasers can.
For another effect of lasers just pass a laser horizontally through a wall-contained balloon, and place a rock/gem/bomb/etc on top of it. The wall will be destroyed, and the object on top of it will move upward as the balloon is released. The balloon then explodes, but the object is free of the explosion and can be pushed to either side. The object then falls back down again and is destroyed by the laser. Similarly, if two rocks are placed on the balloon, the balloon will move downards once released, and the middle rock will be the one that gets destroyed by the laser. In another similar manner, if a laser destroys a gem (but not a key) inside a wall, placed on top of a conveyor belt, the gem will be moved by the belt after being released, but before being destroyed. In the event of the appropriate gem, the conveyor belt will be destroyed by the deflected laser, but the gem wil still be moved.
Also, what I said before about seekers and toll-gates also works for anything with ice properties.

[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 04-13-2009 09:22 AM]
04-13-2009 at 09:21 AM
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Waaaaaah. :weep

I love trying to explain the cause of these bugs, but, believe it or not, I don't enjoy it when a ruby decides to fall into a piece of flowstone in one of my levels.


<--- Clicky.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-14-2009 07:11 PM]
04-14-2009 at 06:47 PM
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I found some odd behavior. It feels like a small discrepency with regards to falling objects.

In the attached level, the cyro bird and first drake escape what looks like certain doom. This seems to be because the rock has not started moving, but they have, meaning they now occupy the space the rock should go to and therefore, block it. (This is probably due to the timing system used in the game where an object messages another one when it's time for it to move - monsters likely have a higher processing priority than gravity does.)

However, in the case of the drakes with the walls, you would think that suddenly making the space empty would produce the same results. :no
I can only guess that the wall's trigger priority is some place after the monsters, but before the level gravity, meaning that the door is opened, gravity happens and the rock kills the monsters. Of course, this could be just be an unintentional bug. :lol

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05-10-2009 at 08:29 AM
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Found another bug with balloons.

When under empty quicksand, it can be pushed sideways.
When under quicksand with a rock, it cannot be moved.
When under quicksand with a key, it can be pushed sideways.

And a small extension of the key bug with balloons:
If the balloon starts off with a key on it, the key will roll off.
If it cannot roll off, the balloon remains stationary.

If there are an odd number of squares between the key and balloon, when the key lands on it, it will remain stationary.

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05-10-2009 at 09:11 AM
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And yet another one! I'm on a roll tonight! :D

Push the rock with player one, and the balloon rises.
Push the rock with player two, and the rock falls.

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05-10-2009 at 09:18 AM
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Some intesting seeker behavior - a seeker will always head towards whichever the top left instance of the player was when the puzzle loads. It will relentlessly chase this one player instance, even if he exits or dies.

It will however, switch between player 1 and player 2 objects, if player 2 blocks the path between the seeker and player 1. However, this is only temporary, as if the path between the seeker and player 1 is ever shorter, it will resume it's initial target.


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06-28-2009 at 05:11 AM
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The Stew Boy wrote:
Occasionally when a monster is killed by flowstone, the flowstone will not extend into the space left by the explosion (see level), until that space has been entered by another object, AFTER the flowstone tries to expand there first - ie, in the level, if you moved down into the space immediately after the explosion, the flowstone still wouldn't expand there, but if you move into the space a while afterward, it'll expand.
I've had this happen when I walked past it... I believe that if you move into the square just as the flowstone should expand, it won't. In other words, this can happen from anything.

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Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Crystal Shard Games : The (Un)Official SubTerra Object Behavior Thread!
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