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TripleM
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I've never really been a fan of RPGs. I love platform games, I love point and click/graphical adventure games. RPGs seem to combine both of them, except that every 3 seconds you have to stop and fight monsters for 30 seconds.

Anyway, people enjoy them, and spent crazy amounts of hours on the same game, so obviously I'm missing something. I bought Kingdom Hearts a while ago which is almost perfect for me, since it combines everything that I enjoy and turns the boring part into nice platform style button mashing. But I also bought a game called Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King.

I don't know if anyone has played that game, but I'm sure the general theme applies. So somebody help me here. I walk around, I randomly bump into three monsters, I push 'attack' on a couple of them, they lose some HP, I lose some HP, they die. About the 4th time this happens, I die.

There's an option to flee, but sometimes they don't let me do that. I have a few items to help me regain HP, but surely they'd run out in very short time. Theres other things like 'psyching yourself up' or 'defend', but I don't really understand how that would help.

How are you meant to play these games?

[Last edited by TripleM at 09-11-2008 12:13 AM]
09-11-2008 at 12:12 AM
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Go fight weak people. Heal. Repeat until needing items, either due to running out or becoming powerful enough for better stuff. Buy stuff. Repeat until powerful enough to go forward. Follow Plot. Repeat until finished with game.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 09-11-2008 02:31 AM]
09-11-2008 at 02:30 AM
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Sillyman wrote:
Go fight weak people. Heal. Repeat until needing items, either due to running out or becoming powerful enough for better stuff. Buy stuff. Repeat until powerful enough to go forward. Follow Plot. Repeat until finished with game.
Wow. And I thought I made games sound bad...
09-11-2008 at 02:37 AM
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Jatopian
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So you're judging the whole genre on Dragon Quest? Maybe you should try an RPG that's actually good.

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09-11-2008 at 02:41 AM
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NiroZ
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Care to provide an example?

I must admit I'm in Triple M's boat. Kingdom Hearts is nice, I played through most of last scenario, but the rest of the arrpeegee's bore me to death. Oh, and for the love of god, whatever you do do not, I repeat DO NOT DARE try Kingdom Hearts 2 Triple M. It is PAIN on an unheard of level.
09-11-2008 at 03:14 AM
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silver
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remember that JRPGs are not all RPGs.

if you can still find it, I highly recommend "Planescape: Torment" to get over your hatred of RPGs.


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09-11-2008 at 03:31 AM
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Beef Row
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Honestly, I tried to get into Dragon Quest and found it terribly dull. Your combat tactics don't seem to matter all that much, to survive you need to fight weak enemies over and over till you're strong enough to face something tougher. You aren't doing something wrong, you just don't want to grind through generic combat, you want to move on with the game and dragon quest doesn't want you to.

Maybe you could try something from the Tales series (which have an actiony combat system), or the Dark Cloud games (action but with alot of crafting, town building, etc).

All of the Mario RPG games (paper or otherwise) have fair amounts of platform and adventure elements, though combat is still a seperate affair. Since you can see enemies ahead of time, you can also try to avoid combat when you don't feel like it.

If you have a 360 or a good PC and high tolerance for DRM, Mass Effect is a great RPG/Shooter which also won't take you away from the game for combat. It's got more of a scifi theme and excellent storytelling. The combat tips much more toward the shooter side, really.

On gametap (the free version, not gold) I've been messing around with this Indie game called Mr. Robot. It's sort of half puzzle platformer, half-RPG. I'm not sure how much I like it yet, but one thing you might like about it is there's no random RPG encounters, the RPG system comes into play when you hack into other robots or computers, and explore their internal circuitry. So it doesn't break the flow.

So ok, there's a fair variety of hybrid RPGs you could check out that might fit your playstyle better than a turn based, linear, lack of meaningful choices, character level and equipment is all that really matters grind like Dragon Quest. (Notice how much all us RPG fans *love* that series?)

EDIT: should this be in Electronic Games?

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[Last edited by Beef Row at 09-11-2008 04:19 AM]
09-11-2008 at 03:45 AM
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TripleM wrote:
How are you meant to play these games?
Ideally you're meant to enjoy the story, the sense of advancement, the exploration of a new world and/or the challenge. Of course, if one of those is really bad/boring, then the others being good doesn't matter so much. Like with Dragon Quest VIII, which I got sick of about 1/3 through, I think. Games like this do start out slow...you'll have to run back to town to heal and replenish your healing supplies as well, in order to gain a few levels. That's why DQ8 is worse than most of these type of RPGs...you really have to grind to survive the next area, and to afford to gear yourself up. Not a good game for newcomers to the sub-genre.

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09-11-2008 at 05:00 AM
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Briareos
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Well, if you want button mashing in your RPG might I suggest Jade Empire or Mass Effect? (Well, only on the XBox with the latter - the PC version uses FPS style controls...)

np: Styrofoam - Fade Out For Eyes (Live At D+M) (A Heart Without A Mind EP)

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09-11-2008 at 09:03 AM
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Nillo
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I guess I'm the opposite - I love RPGs, and I take great pleasure in giving enemies the smackdown and collecting loot while letting the plot unfold around me. My favorites are the ones that manage to make the combat encounters interesting and enjoyable. In Paper Mario, for example, you need to press a button at just the right moment to dodge/crit, which keeps the player alert at all times. The Spirit Engine 2 requires employing a wide variety of attacks and paying attention to the enemies' resistance to piercing/concussive/etc damage while recovering your own health with defensive skills and regularly switching the formation of your heroes. It's not mindless, and that's what makes it so fun.

Of course, the story is also a big part of an RPG, and some can work well despite unpolished gameplay if the plot is good enough (Planescape: Torment).

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09-11-2008 at 12:47 PM
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Snacko
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For RPGs I'd recommend the Baldur's Gate series, the Avernum series, the Icewind Dale series, the Geneforge series, KOTOR, the Ultima series, Mass Effect, the Deus Ex series and, of course, the Fallout series.

Of these, Avernum, Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate and Ultima adhere most to the basic RPG formula, of the four, Baldur's Gate is the easiest to get into.

Mass Effect is an action RPG and plays quite a bit like a first person shooter, Geneforge is fairly typical in may ways, but the story progresses nonlinearly which may be a bit intimidating to a fledgling RPG gamer.

Fallout is a different breed, they both are somewhat short experiences (though 2 will likely take you about the time it takes to get through some of the others the first time through) and are made to be replayed with different starting stats. Due to the superb character creation system, this can make the game play in a variety of ways.

The Deus Ex series are essentially first person stealth shooters with strong RPG elements. The second introduced branching story paths, but significantly dumbed down the RPG aspects. They're both worth a look in my opinion.

For jRPGs, I recently reviewed Chrono Cross though I'd highly recommend you play Chrono Trigger first (don't worry, it is as good or better than Cross). Along the line of Square RPGs I'd also recommend FFIV, Xenogears, FFVI and, if you're alright with the fact that it isn't a typical jRPG and is fairly complex, pick up the underappreciated Vagrant Story. People tend to like FFVII, but I didn't really see what was so special about it.

Vagrant Story plays differently than just about any other game out there (it bears some similarities to the N64 game "Hybrid Heaven" however). You control the main character as though you were in a platformer then when you draw your sword you can attack enemies by opening a sphere (pressing X) and choosing certain attacks. From there you can chain attacks which raises your RISK meter (lower hit%, take more damage, healing spells more effective, higher critical hit%) but does damage and can have other benefits according to what attack you use. A similar system is used for defensive abilities. It may also be worth noting that the structure is odd, mimicking that of an action game, levels are split up clearly by bosses.

A great, yet time consuming "pure" jRPG is the Shin Megami Tensei series. They all use fairly simple mechanics, but the battles rely on skill and trial and error and there is one aspect that can take up hours of your life if you let it. In the main series, your party is composed of a set amount of humans (the main character and any allies he acquired, there is only one ally in Nocturne, Dante from Devil May Cry) and the rest of the party is filled up by tamed demons. It's somewhat of a precursor to Pokemon, you have the option of talking to demons and, if they're in a good mood, they'll carry on the conversation. Depending on various factors (and many random rolls) they may ask to taste some of your energy, ask for certain items or money or ask you philosophical questions. In the best case scenario they'll join your party. From here you can fuse them with other tamed demons to make more powerful demons (though they cannot be a higher level than the main character). You seem to think grinding is boring, so this may not be a good choice, but the fact that the battles are actually fun unlike most jRPGs may get you addicted.

sRPGs are a good idea if you dislike traditional battles, I'd specifically recommend Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, Shining Force 1-3 and especially the Disgaea series.

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09-11-2008 at 10:10 PM
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Lamkin
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Roughly falling into the RPG category is any game from the Myth series. Yes, it's quite a bit dated graphically, etc., but I think they manage to take much of the tediousness out of combat. Also, the learning curve isn't ridiculously steep.
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09-11-2008 at 11:09 PM
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If you like Myth, you might like this - a low-casualty no-pause run on Heroic difficulty with audio commentary and a running body count. While it's a pretty good game, I think calling it an RPG might be pushing it - to my mind it's more of a real-time strategy game minus the base-building (like Military Madness). Having units survive through the game is an advantage due to veterancy effects, but not a necessity.

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09-11-2008 at 11:50 PM
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RoboBob3000
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Zelda. Is it an RPG?

Talk amongst yourselves.

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09-12-2008 at 01:55 AM
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zex20913
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You know, I think I'd start calling the Zelda series a "Rock Pusher Game".

Some of the puzzles literally involve pushing rocks (or blocks, whatever).

If you take "pushing rocks" as "Move X from A to B", then that's all one does for all of the puzzles.

Each item gives a new way to push rocks.

Then, at the end, it definitely gets Sisyphean, because Link starts with 3 hearts again, even if you rocked the previous game. I'm looking at you, Phantom Hourglass and Majora's Mask.

Oh! You meant Role Playing Game. Well...taken literally, isn't every game one where you play a role? Mario...Bioshock...Doom...alright, Tetris seems the exception.

I'll shut up, because I'm not saying anything anyway.

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09-12-2008 at 02:10 AM
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Sillyman
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I would probably recommend any RPG that either doesn't use the Final Fantasy sort of battle, or that has action in those battles. Why? Because otherwise there's no room for skill. If there's action, then you yourself do part of the fighting. If there's a different system (like Ultima, Geneforge, etc.), then there's strategy. And strategy is good.

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09-12-2008 at 02:13 AM
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NiroZ
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Ok, from my experience:

Any FPS/RPG hybrds, like Bioshock, system shock 2 & Deus Ex are awesome.

Most other RPG's are a mystery as to how they are enjoyed. This includes KOTOR II, Neverwinter Nights, FFX. Notable exception is last scenario, which was engaging until I got stuck.

Most action RPG's are enjoyable, like Diablo II, Kingdom Hearts and LoonyLand 2. Except for Kingdom Hearts 2, because the story was terrible and the gameplay was lackluster. I think zelda may fit in this category, in which case it's never really caught my interest.

MMORPG's like WoW are interesting and engaging at first, but tend to die off into a grind, at which point I lose interest.
09-12-2008 at 04:05 AM
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RoboBob3000 wrote:
Zelda. Is it an RPG?

Talk amongst yourselves.

Help me define RPGs. :/

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 09-12-2008 04:51 AM]
09-12-2008 at 04:51 AM
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Rabscuttle wrote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
Zelda. Is it an RPG?

Talk amongst yourselves.

Help me define RPGs. :/
There was an interesting discussion a while back on the Rampant Coyote's blog about the fundamental elements of an RPG.

I don't agree with his criterion that there has to be some randomness. The Paper Mario series, for instance, have (nearly) none, but those games wouldn't be less of an RPG, in my mind, if what randomness there is were eliminated entirely. However, maybe you disagree Paper Mario is an RPG.

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09-12-2008 at 05:57 AM
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Cool, I was just trying to remember where I'd seen those posts. He defined a new term (Adventure-Puzzle Game) for things like DROD:RPG.

I haven't played the Paper Mario series, but going back to Zelda - you could argue that there's no randomness in that - different weapons/attacks do different amounts of damage, but the same weapon will always do the same amount of damage (at least as far as I know)
There are obvious random things (when exactly a monster attacks, spot the real Poe) but that's not hidden stuff and more to do with timing (which would make it a rhythm game?!).
09-12-2008 at 06:30 AM
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Beef Row
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Rabscuttle wrote:
I haven't played the Paper Mario series, but going back to Zelda - you could argue that there's no randomness in that - different weapons/attacks do different amounts of damage, but the same weapon will always do the same amount of damage (at least as far as I know)
There are obvious random things (when exactly a monster attacks, spot the real Poe) but that's not hidden stuff and more to do with timing (which would make it a rhythm game?!).

Whether defeated monsters drop rupees, health, arrows, bombs or nothing is somewhat random as far as I know. Obviously within a certain range for each monster.

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09-12-2008 at 07:25 AM
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NiroZ wrote:
Except for Kingdom Hearts 2, because the story was terrible and the gameplay was lackluster.

Sure, it was boring if you specced for keyblade, because then it was easy.

Do it speccing into magic, then it becomes pretty fun.
09-13-2008 at 09:05 PM
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Most developers that make JRPGs are incredibly jaded. It's the same formula since 1987 with little improvement other than graphics. I wasn't a fan of Final Fantasy back in those days (yes it was FF7) and playing the older games, I'm surprised at how little it has changed from FF2. For a series of games which concentrates on storytelling, the series hasn't made a decent impact if you exclude FFX and FF6.</ramble>

And saying that, Shadowhearts is a pretty good JRPG. The Judgement Ring system - pressing O in time on a circular disk which a marker moves around to maximise damage, deal combos, cast spells and even use items. It has an interesting Sanity system, which when you encounter monsters, this goes down with each round, and if it reaches zero, your characters goes "berzerk" and you can't control him/her (items make it go back up).

Tales of Phantasia has always been my favourite JRPG outside of the Strategic turn battle ones. Chrono Cross is another, Star Ocean 2 is decent, a bit of a grind at times but these tend to shave the repetition by being not traditional JRPGs. After playing a lot of JRPGs I've come to the conclusion that they aren't worth playing if the story isn't up to scratch. It's a pretty bad format for gameplay as they are generally extremely linear, but sets up stories very well. Which is appalling because Planescape: Torment kicks their ass for storylines.

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09-23-2008 at 01:02 AM
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So I guess I'll defend JRPGs? They're actually evolving these days, and most of the best are dropping the random battles and incorporating more action elements (except for Dragon Quest, because its appeal is that it never changes. Poor Dragon Quest IX. It was going to be an action-RPG, you know. And it'd be awesome.)

Funnily enough, Dragon Quest is designed to be as accessible as possible. The Dragon Quest 4 remake for the DS is probably your best bet JRPG-wise - it's charming and brisk, with easy-to-grasp mechanics, before the series got too scared of alienating its fans. Its storyline is a kind of Before-They-Were-Heroes thing, where each set of playable characters gets their own little scenario, about an hour or two long, before the game proper starts and they all meet up. The translation's okay - very punny, and they lay on the regional accents a bit thick - but the source shines through.

Note also that, unlike most RPGs, you keep your levels when you die in Dragon Quest (so dying during a boss fight means you just go back to town, and you go back out and cream everything on the way to the boss), and it's sub-optimal to get the best gear available to you (unlike Final Fantasy, where you're expected to replace your gear every time you get to a new town). The encounter rate (it's an old game, so yes, random battles) is pretty forgiving, and because it uses both screens to show the dungeons, it's less frustrating to explore around, too.

I have an irrational love for The World Ends With You, which is an action RPG from the creator of Kingdom Hearts that is infinitely better than Kingdom Hearts. It's an action-RPG, and it's got a learning curve as you coordinate between both screens at once, but it eases you into it quite nicely and the story's pretty well written (although suffering from the Japanese tendency to stick to linearity even when it's a bad idea.) More importantly, it lets you mess with drop rates, and there are no random battles whatsoever.

And there's Etrian Odyssey, which is a Wizardry-style game, again for the DS, where you explore a dungeon in a first-person view on the top screen and draw a map on the bottom screen. You create the entire party, making sure to get a good balance of stuff, and try to push forward as much as you can without getting caught too far from home or getting caught by the FOEs - wandering boss monsters in the middle of the level. It's apparently pretty good, and has a large amount of variety.

You may be noticing a pattern here -- most of the best JRPGs coming out are on the DS. This is no coincidence! Japan loves their DSs, and the machine is well-suited to RPGs and ports of old favourites.

Also, Chrono Trigger is coming out on it, which is widely considered to be the pinnacle of traditional JRPG design.

You will notice that I haven't mentioned Final Fantasy. Honestly, for beginners the series is a wash apart from FF4 (as long as you're playing the GBA version), FF6, maybe FF7 (though it's dated horribly), FFX (except it's got pretty much everything that infuriates the JRPG detractors) and FF12. FF12 is pretty good because it jettisons random battles and a lot of the silliness the series is known for, and because Balthier is awesome. I like FF9, but that's because I have the context to enjoy its silliness and in-jokes.

I have had people recommend Persona 3 to me quite highly. Maybe that is a goer.

Re: Zelda is an RPG: yes, but it's abstracted and simplified, and then elaborated, that it's really its own sub-genre. It's more visible in the original game, where defeating a boss character resulted in what's essentially a level up.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 09-23-2008 08:45 AM]
09-23-2008 at 08:43 AM
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NiroZ
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I'd probably point out, seeing as you compelled me to look it up, The World Ends With You is for the DS and has mostly scored around 9/10. Hardly what I would call irrational love.
09-23-2008 at 09:14 AM
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Mattcrampy wrote:
And there's Etrian Odyssey, which is a Wizardry-style game, again for the DS, where you explore a dungeon in a first-person view on the top screen and draw a map on the bottom screen. You create the entire party, making sure to get a good balance of stuff, and try to push forward as much as you can without getting caught too far from home or getting caught by the FOEs - wandering boss monsters in the middle of the level. It's apparently pretty good, and has a large amount of variety.

I love Etrian Odyssey 2 (I haven't played 1), but it's a game for hardcore RPG fans, not for newcomers to the field. It has an unforgiving difficulty curve, and requires a serious time investment. And EO2 is supposed to be the more accessible one.

You will notice that I haven't mentioned Final Fantasy. Honestly, for beginners the series is a wash apart from FF4 (as long as you're playing the GBA version)...

Just pointing out that the DS remake of FF4 is great. I'm about halfway through an loving it a lot more than I did the earlier version I played (which was an SNES ROM, I think). The DS remake of FF3 is pretty boring, though.

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09-23-2008 at 03:50 PM
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The problem is that the DS version cranks up the difficulty immensely and introduces augments, which are one-time only permanent ability upgrades for your characters, which mutate based on who they're given to. They're unfair design, basically asking you to make blind guesses on who'll benefit the most from an item you just got.

The GBA version has some rather severe bugs in the battle system, but it plays relatively straight and has a nice amount of post-game content. You get to have all your old party members back at the end, too, something the DS version doesn't allow.

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09-24-2008 at 11:07 AM
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Snacko
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Just some news for fans of the greatest jRPG series of all time, Shin Megami Tensei IV has been all but announced for next gen systems (my guess is that it'll be a direct sequel to Maniacs with the protagonist fighting alongside Lucifer against the forces of heaven, much like Adel from SMTII). Atlus is also considering releasing the first two games on Wii's Virtual Console in the US.

Persona 4 is coming to the US in December, it takes place in the P3 universe but looks to return the level of depth back to the high standards of the P2 series.

Speaking of P2, the long awaiting English patch for Persona 2: Innocent Sin, the first half of P2 never released outside of Japan is coming October 15!

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[Last edited by Snacko at 09-28-2008 12:59 AM]
09-24-2008 at 10:18 PM
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NiroZ
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I'd be interested to know your throughts on Mass Effect and Fallout 3. Are these comfortable to play without having to pause the game to give the next order? Or are these just RPG's with a first person shooter interface.

I'd be interested to know how they compare to STALKER or Deus Ex in terms of gameplay.
11-01-2008 at 05:06 AM
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Beef Row
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NiroZ wrote:
I'd be interested to know your throughts on Mass Effect and Fallout 3. Are these comfortable to play without having to pause the game to give the next order? Or are these just RPG's with a first person shooter interface.

I'd be interested to know how they compare to STALKER or Deus Ex in terms of gameplay.

Mass Effect is mostly straight shooting, you need only pause when you want to fire off an ability. Especially if you play a soldier type rather than a abilities based class, you could treat it as a shooter with more story. You'll be armed with a sniper rifle, shotgun, assault rifle and pistol 100% of the time, equipment you find improves the quality of those weapons and adds some special characteristics (ie: incendiary rounds), it doesn't give you new weapon types. Ammo is unlimited, your firing limits are based on weapon overheating and loss of accuracy in burst fire.

Fallout 3's targetting system is rather more necessary, since it helps you weaken opponents, take longer shots and get more criticals. It also saves ammo, and at least early on Fallout 3 has a very survivalist feel in trying to save ammo and stay healthy without getting overly radiated (unlike Stalker, radiation builds up gradually, but if it gets too high it will weaken your stats or even kill you. And almost all food and water has some.)

The targetting system takes some time to recharge, so traditional shooting is necessary as well, a lot of the time.
Last point: in melee you don't really need the targetting system at all and it has little benefit. But between snipers in high places, radioactive enemies, strong melee enemies and flamethrowers, I imagine a pure melee aproach would be rough going (except maybe for a stealth specialist).

For a true shooter purist wanting to try one of them, I suppose I'd recommend Mass Effect, but if you loved the settings for Deus Ex and Stalker, Fallout 3 is much more atmospherically related. Mass Effect somehow feels much more optimistic about and comfortable with technology and progress, despite a conflict with sentient machines being a central plotline. The need to conserve supplies, relatively less black and white moral choices, greater stealth options, and need to plan your character's development also might make fallout 3 a closer fit to the games you seem to enjoy. So I'd recommend them both to you, but for diffrent reasons.

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11-01-2008 at 06:56 AM
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