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Stoney
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You might not want to hear that, but there is almost always a certain percentage of people who first get introduced to a game by an Illegal copy. This especially applies to Indie Games, as their devs usually wont put huge sums of money into advertising and stuff. Some of those people might apprechiate the developers work, look up the Webpage in Google and decide to show support by buying the game.
That being said, i have to clarify that i fully understand that this is not the cycle intended by any developer. Its also true that there are always bad apples who just keep pirating the game even if they enjoy it.
I just wanted to point out that not everything is completely bad. Even your smelly, eye patch wearing, hook compatible software pirate may see the effort, blood and sweat you put into a game and choose to support it.

If i had to judge DROD from that perspective id find a lot pro arguments for buying this software such as: Low Price, Friendly Indie Community, Challenging Puzzles which manage to put my brain to shame, the absence of nasty Copy Protection and so forth.



[Last edited by Stoney at 03-27-2008 02:27 PM]
03-27-2008 at 12:45 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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I personally think the the music industry has only itself to blame for the huge rise in music piracy over the last few years.

Image if it was the music industry that came up with torrents and allowed their music to be downloaded for free. To download the torrents you first need to visit a webpage to grab the .torrent file which can be sponsored by a banner advert at the top of the page. I wonder how much they would get for an ad at the top of a new U2 release with millions of guaranteed viewers.
Distribution costs are practically zero once a few people have the completed download. Increased exposure for artists will lead to increased concert ticket and merchandise sales.

I'm sure there are downsides. CD manufacture may drop, but who knows, maybe cd-r purchasing will increase to compensate.

Personally I think the pirate sites are doing the music industry more good than harm. I know we all hear about the millions of dollars pirates have "stolen" from the artists, but out of those millions of downloads, how many would have been actual sales if the pirate bay didn't exist?
If not for the pirate bay, I would not have bought any albums by Aphex Twin, Bjork, Sigur Ros, Captain Beefheart, LCD Soundsystem and Tool to name a few. Most of the albums I have purchased in the last couple of years were downloaded first. An even larger amount were downloaded, listened to once and then deleted, but then, why should I have to pay for those? I know you can sample 30 second clips online, but I prefer to listen to music on my mp3 player.
I think that once the music industry starts to cater to music fans rather than try to exploit them we will see the end of the pirate sites.

Links to a couple of interesting articles on the subject...
Pirace is a negotiation
Good pirates help sell products

quote:
Mattcrampy wrote:
Guys, I'm not sure how this is relevant to the topic of discussion - I mean, Ghosts I-IV is CC-licensed, Nine Inch Nails retains the copyright, they just give away rights that allow the work to be used as a promotional tool.

What may be relevant is the (old) news that Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails) openly admits that he downloads music and explained why here.
In other news he also told Australian fans to steal his music in a protest about the overpricing of CDs.

Steve.

[Last edited by Stephen4Louise at 03-27-2008 01:54 PM]
03-27-2008 at 01:46 PM
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Stoney
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Stephen4Louise wrote:
I personally think the the music industry has only itself to blame for the huge rise in music piracy over the last few years.

Image if it was the music industry that came up with torrents and allowed their music to be downloaded for free. To download the torrents you first need to visit a webpage to grab the .torrent file which can be sponsored by a banner advert at the top of the page. I wonder how much they would get for an ad at the top of a new U2 release with millions of guaranteed viewers.
Distribution costs are practically zero once a few people have the completed download. Increased exposure for artists will lead to increased concert ticket and merchandise sales.



Well, that decision would still leave out dudes who prefer to buy a material compact disc instead. Also, as much as Bit Torrent would be an option, i doubt anyone wants to install P2P Software to grab Music legally. Ads usually are getting blocked nowadays.

quote:

I'm sure there are downsides. CD manufacture may drop, but who knows, maybe cd-r purchasing will increase to compensate.



I doubt that, with all those USB Sticks and IPod Players around the CD-R Sell wont boost up much.

quote:

Personally I think the pirate sites are doing the music industry more good than harm. [....] If not for the pirate bay, I would not have bought any albums by Aphex Twin, Bjork, Sigur Ros, Captain Beefheart, LCD Soundsystem and Tool to name a few. Most of the albums I have purchased in the last couple of years were downloaded first. An even larger amount were downloaded, listened to once and then deleted, but then, why should I have to pay for those? [...] I think that once the music industry starts to cater to music fans rather than try to exploit them we will see the end of the pirate sites.



I agree to a certain amount here. If not for Piracy i wouldnt even know about the existence of some music groups. Sure, you could also use an MySpace Account to learn about new bands, but i prefer not to. The Industry and some Composers also try to stop Bootleg Copys from Concerts to spread. Bootlegs are a great gain for every true Fan. Almost everyone loves to have a copy of the concert, he or she just visited, around. Metallica jumped on the bandwagon by selling Bootlegs on their website in better quality then the free ones.





[Last edited by Stoney at 03-27-2008 04:33 PM]
03-27-2008 at 03:07 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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Stoney wrote:
Well, that decision would still leave out dudes who prefer to buy a material compact disc instead. Also, as much as Bit Torrent would be an option, i doubt anyone wants to install P2P Software to grab Music legally. Ads usually are getting blocked nowadays.


There is still plenty of scope for bands to release physical media for as long as people want to buy it. Look at Ghosts for instance http://ghosts.nin.com/main/order_options, there is the free option right up to the super deluxe. Maybe small bands won't have the resources to have CDs printed, but it is easier for them to get a foot on the ladder.
I used Bit Torrent as a possibility, did you know that the BBC are part of a group researching P2P as a means of streaming TV programs online? link
Delivering content using p2p is a cheap and fast way to deliver content to the masses. Don't forget, the people the music industry should be targeting as potential customers rather than enemies are the ones who have been happily using torrents and p2p for years.

Steve.

[Last edited by Stephen4Louise at 03-27-2008 03:36 PM]
03-27-2008 at 03:35 PM
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NiroZ
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quote:
Stoney wrote:
You might not want to hear that, but there is almost always a certain percentage of people who first get introduced to a game by an Illegal copy. This especially applies to Indie Games, as their devs usually wont put huge sums of money into advertising and stuff. Some of those people might apprechiate the developers work, look up the Webpage in Google and decide to show support by buying the game.
That being said, i have to clarify that i fully understand that this is not the cycle intended by any developer. Its also true that there are always bad apples who just keep pirating the game even if they enjoy it.
I just wanted to point out that not everything is completely bad. Even your smelly, eye patch wearing, hook compatible software pirate may see the effort, blood and sweat you put into a game and choose to support it.

I've heard this arguement a lot, but the main problem is that I've yet to meet someone who acted out this hypothetical situation.

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03-28-2008 at 12:35 AM
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calamarain
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quote:
NiroZ wrote:
quote:
Stoney wrote:
You might not want to hear that, but there is almost always a certain percentage of people who first get introduced to a game by an Illegal copy. This especially applies to Indie Games, as their devs usually wont put huge sums of money into advertising and stuff. Some of those people might apprechiate the developers work, look up the Webpage in Google and decide to show support by buying the game.
That being said, i have to clarify that i fully understand that this is not the cycle intended by any developer. Its also true that there are always bad apples who just keep pirating the game even if they enjoy it.
I just wanted to point out that not everything is completely bad. Even your smelly, eye patch wearing, hook compatible software pirate may see the effort, blood and sweat you put into a game and choose to support it.

I've heard this arguement a lot, but the main problem is that I've yet to meet someone who acted out this hypothetical situation.
You've met me. Hiya :)

A while ago, I 'legally' downloaded a copy of one of the C&C series. I liked it, a lot so I thought I'd get a legit copy and ordered one.

But that's a rare case, I agree.

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03-28-2008 at 12:45 AM
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NiroZ
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An even more pertinent question is, has anyone done it without first hearing the 'if people really love it they'll go and purchase it legally to support the dev' argument.

Because otherwise it means that should this become the norm, once the ideology fades nobody will do it, because it would not be a natural thing to do.

And out of pure curiosity, calamarain, which C&C game was it?

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03-28-2008 at 01:01 AM
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calamarain
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quote:
NiroZ wrote:
An even more pertinent question is, has anyone done it without first hearing the 'if people really love it they'll go and purchase it legally to support the dev' argument.

Because otherwise it means that should this become the norm, once the ideology fades nobody will do it, because it would not be a natural thing to do.

And out of pure curiosity, calamarain, which C&C game was it?
One of the Red Alert series. I think it was the first one.

I did buy it second hand though, so the company didn't make any extra profit :P

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03-28-2008 at 01:08 AM
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Beef Row
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Well, I guess I don't have a 'got it illegally first, then bought it legally' story, but I did first play Half-Life 1 using a friend's extra key (is this legal when someone happens to have more than one key for a game based on having various bundles Valve has sold? I'm not even sure if this means I have a legal copy or a pirated one.) And after playing that for a while, I purchased Half-Life 2 GOTY Edition, and later Ep 1. No Orange Box yet.

Many of the GBA games I've bought I played on emulator first before I owned a GBA (and later a DS). If there were a good DS emulator, at a guess I'd probably have tried at least 20-30 more games, and probably would own at least 5-10 more. There might have been a few I played through on the emulator, sure.

I don't really pirate games, honestly. Every once in a while I'll pirate an expansion, especially if by the time I want it it's only sold bundled to something I've ALREADY bought. A similar sentiment (minus any attempt at piracy)is probably why I'm hesitant on buying Orange Box. That realization that, hey wait, won't I be paying in part for things I already payed for before?

I do make a point of only buying used copies of anything Sony, to make sure Sony doesn't profit off me. I just don't like Sony for various reasons. Clearly not piracy, but as far as Sony is concerned it has the same result, its just that some third party profits instead of them. I'm not quite sure how third party profit makes it 'more moral' in this case, but 'less moral' if someone were to profit off a digital copy (I understand the diffrence, I just don't see how you can advance it without undermining the arguement that the essential immorality of piracy is that it deprives the artist of profits they deserve.)

This is only my attitude on the game industry. Justifiably or not, and sometimes I think the correct answer is not, I hold more respect for it than for the music and visual media industries. Except Sony of course, though my disdain from it comes as much from its music, film and hardware divisions as its game division (Sony developing a DVD DRM that prevents some Sony DVD players from playing legal copies of protected disks, for instance. ARccOS protection ).

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03-28-2008 at 06:40 AM
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NiroZ
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If you really hate sony, wouldn't it be best to buy its competitors products instead?

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03-28-2008 at 07:04 AM
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Stoney
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You just met another person. Back in the old days, i had an illegal disc copy of Monkey Island 2 with a copied code wheel. I bought the Game and its sequels later because i really love this game series until this very day. (At least up to Monkey Island 3, but i own the complete Series legit now) I then continued to buy other Lucas Arts Products such as Indiana Jones or Day Of The Tentacle. Shame LA doesnt do Adventure Games anymore.
Nowadays I stopped buying major software titles, with some exceptions of games i really love. Why? Well, there is one thing that pi**es me off and that is intrusive Copy Protection. Almost every major title got a protection packed with it, and i cant even try out Demo Versions because the Protection will also be installed with these. I really hate that, as i have to use my computer for work too. I dont want it to be screwed up with protection drivers.

Ive read the story about "Titan Quest" one of you posted above. I call using a Custom Protection that makes the game crash a very bad design decision. While this might be hard to crack, almost everytime this will make the game look bad and give it a bad reputation. Besides that, it will also give the support guys much much more work, as this protection might malfunction aswell. (think of a scratched disc) At least Mike had the guts to admit that it wasnt piracy alone that failed Iron Lore. Still i would avoid it at all costs to call people stupid because of their support questions. Besides being rude, its no way to threat or even think about your customers. Its almost as bad as the deeds of another Software Company i know. They recently threatened everyone who did a support question, to file charges against them if they would recognize an illegal version being used, thus scaring of legit customers aswell.





[Last edited by Stoney at 03-28-2008 08:45 AM]
03-28-2008 at 08:25 AM
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NiroZ
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Question. Ok, you have one example. Now count the number of games that you have pirated, and played for at least a couple of hours (which means that you at least derived some enjoyment out of it). Would you say that you did this for all the games in that count?
quote:
Stoney wrote:
Nowadays I stopped buying major software titles, with some exceptions of games i really love. Why? Well, there is one thing that pi**es me off and that is intrusive Copy Protection. Almost every major title got a protection packed with it, and i cant even try out Demo Versions because the Protection will also be installed with these. I really hate that, as i have to use my computer for work too. I dont want it to be screwed up with protection drivers.
Other than starforce, I don't know of any copy protection which is nasty enough to avoid the game.
quote:

Its almost as bad as the deeds of another Software Company i know. They recently threatened everyone who did a support question, to file charges against them if they would recognize an illegal version being used, thus scaring of legit customers aswell.
While alienating the customers isn't a good idea, I can imagine the frustration. I mean christ, fair enough that you want to copy the game, but then abuse the customer support on that game for issues which may just be your own damn fault? When I used to pirate, at least I kept in mind that if anything stuffed up, the last person to blame was the developer. Usually it was to do with the way the copy protection was broken anyway.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 03-28-2008 09:33 AM]
03-28-2008 at 09:31 AM
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Stoney
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quote:

Question. Ok, you have one example. Now count the number of games that you have pirated, and played for at least a couple of hours (which means that you at least derived some enjoyment out of it). Would you say that you did this for all the games in that count?



No, but i dont play that much games anymore these days as i dont have that much spare time. Still i did it for the games i just had to come back to from time to time. (Knights Of The Old Republic 1, Knights Of The Old Republic 2, Black Mirror (had Starforce but Dev removed it later), Gabriel Knight (had Part 1 copied on a Floppy once, bought the complete Series now), Swat 4, Sanatarium (bought later after having it lended by a friend), Phantasmagoria (bought later after having it lended by a friend), Monkey Island, Indiana Jones just to name a some ...) Im proud to have them on my shelf, as they are good and classic games all around.

I will buy sequels to Black Mirror, Knights Of The Old Republic, Gabriel Knight probably on spot, because i trust in the good quality of those games. I was a bit disappointed by Monkey Island 4, i bought this game without trying it first.

quote:

Other than starforce, I don't know of any copy protection which is nasty enough to avoid the game.



Well, Tags digs itself deep into Windows aswell. Copy Protections have to get more intrusive to the system to be harder to crack. Yet i dont understand it, almost every game gets cracked sooner or later, so why the hassle in the first place? While i understand it from a certain point of view, all it does in the end is stopping piracy for some rather short time, and playing the Ass Card against honest Customers. For "Titan Quest" it was kind of an desaster, as according to Mike the Crack was broken due to their custom protection they used. But it hasnt stopped piracy, it has given the game a bad reputation. Now imagine "Titan Quest" to be released without any protection. Do you think there would have been more illegal copies around? While we can argue over that, the reputation of the game would have stayed intact. Honest customers dont like to spend their hard earned money on buggy games.

You see, both Elder Scrolls Morrowind and Elder Scrolls Oblivion have been released without any form of copy protection. All they had was a simple check for the CD to be in the drive, no driver, nothing. Elder Scrolls Titles are major titles, still they sold pretty well without any copy protection applied on it. Another Example would be Galactic Civilizations II: No Copy Protection at all, only a Serial which allowes customers to download Patches in a secured area on their website. It sold pretty good and still does. Both of these Titles have a pretty strong community attached to it. I believe that having a strong, honest and donating community is more vital for a game to be a success then any copy protection in the world. But to have this, the game has to attract gamers in the first place, something not every game on the planet manages. A strong Copy Protection wont help those games either.

quote:

While alienating the customers isn't a good idea, I can imagine the frustration. I mean christ, fair enough that you want to copy the game, but then abuse the customer support on that game for issues which may just be your own damn fault? When I used to pirate, at least I kept in mind that if anything stuffed up, the last person to blame was the developer. Usually it was to do with the way the copy protection was broken anyway.



I understand the frustration aswell. Customer Support shouldnt have to deal with pirated games, and they tried to avoid that with their pretty harsh comment i guess. Still, i think you could express that in some other manner.


[Last edited by Stoney at 03-28-2008 02:09 PM]
03-28-2008 at 10:12 AM
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Beef Row
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NiroZ wrote:
If you really hate sony, wouldn't it be best to buy its competitors products instead?


Well, I do. There's zero chance I'll get a PS3, zero chance I'll get a PSP. I've already had a PS2 for quite some time (long enough ago it was before Sony had done many of the things that made me dislike them so much, in fact.) The PS2 has an extremely large and high quality game library. Thats never been one of my issues with Sony. So from time to time I'll still pick something up, but only in used form. Obviously buying used rathern than new will get easier and easier to do now that its a previous gen console.

I currently have a Wii and a DS, and may get a 360 sometime soon. When I buy games for those systems, I'll still buy some used games, but I buy a decent number of new ones. (For example, on the Wii I think I've bought about 6 new games and 3 used ones).

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03-28-2008 at 12:14 PM
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quote:
NiroZ wrote:
Other than starforce, I don't know of any copy protection which is nasty enough to avoid the game.

Oh, cut it out with the unsubstantiated StarForce hating already - as if the stupid glop.org hate campaign against it that failed to show any actual proof for their whinings hadn't been enough...

StarForce was about the only copy protection that I had exactly zero problems with, as opposed to SecuROM, Tages et al.

np: Proem - Live @ KVRX 10-09-2001 (Merck Fragments)

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03-28-2008 at 04:10 PM
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Stoney
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Oh please, there is really no need to form some kind of hate campaign against Starforce. The SF Team did all their bad PR themselves, as they tried to share a torrent in their own developer forum, just to proof that a game (Galactic Civilization 2 for that matter) is being downloaded because it doesnt have any form of copy protection. Shortly after this the big Distributors dropped Starforce, and rightfully so.

As far as i know, its only used on some sloppy russian games, after all that mess came down.

You can read the Article here:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148721

[Last edited by Stoney at 03-29-2008 01:11 AM]
03-28-2008 at 09:55 PM
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One of the problems that I've seen in the ongoing IP discussions is that people inevitably see the black and white ends of the spectrum, and by seeing only the enemy rather than the grey, justify their own position.

The music industries look at the really bad pirates, the people who don't do it to make a statement, but really and truly just want free stuff (example: my brother). The pirates look at an industry (no naming names here) that abuses pricing and extorts from the people through the courts. Both sides see it as a justification for their actions, and neither is correct.

Staunch defenders of copyright law haven't gotten the whole point - you can't control people. Thar will be pirates. Capitalism is an economic system with the fundamental understanding that people have options, and will choose the product they feel is best for them. If they don't like something at the price offered, they will simply not purchase it. If your product isn't purchased, the business fails. Piracy just adds a new dimension, which is that people who disapprove of the price will acquire the product without purchase. So basically, you have to work harder to sell people your product. But there are plenty of people who aren't interested in piracy, and others (myself included) will pirate according to specific criteria - for myself, I will only pirate stuff that I find to be priced too high for me to purchase otherwise, or else are unavailable from the original source - in that case, I figure that there is no harm done because the original creators don't actually lose anything, because they don't get paid either way.
03-29-2008 at 12:34 AM
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Tim
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I'd rather not use the P-word, because people connect that word with "illegal", while in most parts in the world everything we're talking about is actually legal.

How about a different view? Here's a question for the Creator in you:

If you really did made something really good, do you want people remember you as the architect of the great imaginary piece, or do you want to be remembered as the evil person that made a lot of money because you can?
(For example, Vincent van Gogh was a very poor person throughout his life, but people still appreciate and recognize his works.)

Is "Imaginary Property" equal to "how much money can I milk out of this thing" or "will people remember that it was me that created it"?
If it is the former, why would you expect the paying public to respect you?


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03-29-2008 at 01:52 AM
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quote:
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Oh, cut it out with the unsubstantiated StarForce hating already - as if the stupid glop.org hate campaign against it that failed to show any actual proof for their whinings hadn't been enough...

StarForce was about the only copy protection that I had exactly zero problems with, as opposed to SecuROM, Tages et al.

np: Proem - Live @ KVRX 10-09-2001 (Merck Fragments)
Actually, I wasn't starforce hating as much as trying to list examples of copy protection that had (a supposedly) bad effect on your computer. Ok, I did miss tages, but then again that is on a whole of 3 games. What is the problem with securom?

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03-29-2008 at 02:44 AM
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NiroZ
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quote:
Tim wrote:
I'd rather not use the P-word, because people connect that word with "illegal", while in most parts in the world everything we're talking about is actually legal.

How about a different view? Here's a question for the Creator in you:

If you really did made something really good, do you want people remember you as the architect of the great imaginary piece, or do you want to be remembered as the evil person that made a lot of money because you can?
(For example, Vincent van Gogh was a very poor person throughout his life, but people still appreciate and recognize his works.)

Is "Imaginary Property" equal to "how much money can I milk out of this thing" or "will people remember that it was me that created it"?
If it is the former, why would you expect the paying public to respect you?


You're dealing with two different extremes. Imaginary property is as much "I want to be attributed for my stuff" as "I want to scrape a living out off my own work"

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03-29-2008 at 02:48 AM
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Briareos
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NiroZ wrote:
What is the problem with securom?

Whenever I played Sacred, I had to reboot my machine before it would let me run the game a second time.

The version Far Cry used didn't even begin to check the disc with Daemon Tools installed - and no, I'm not going to install the whole MSDN library if I can run it off the ISO files it comes on in the MSDNAA download.

Not to mention it's complete and utter refusal to run if I had the nerve of running Process Explorer by Sysinternals (now Microsoft) before trying to launch a game - which especially sucks for the people using Process Explorer as a Windows Task Manager replacement. And no, the error message didn't even remotely hint at what the problem was...

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03-29-2008 at 11:08 AM
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Not to mention it's complete and utter refusal to run if I had the nerve of running Process Explorer by Sysinternals (now Microsoft) before trying to launch a game - which especially sucks for the people using Process Explorer as a Windows Task Manager replacement. And no, the error message didn't even remotely hint at what the problem was...
You mean while you're running processor explorer? (well, at least for bioshock anyway...)

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03-29-2008 at 03:01 PM
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Briareos
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You mean while you're running processor explorer? (well, at least for bioshock anyway...)

While it is running, and even afterwards - the only thing to fix it is rebooting... :thumbsdown

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03-29-2008 at 05:23 PM
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I had a similar experience with SecuROM whilst having Daemon Tools installed. Ludicrous. (Or possibly Ridikalus).

Regarding the Orange Box, if you only fancy individual titles they've been relased separately, but it's a bargain if you want all 3, since they're all excellent games. If you have dialup then TF2's no use to you I guess, but anyone who doesn't fall in love with Portal has no heart. Ep2 was a huge improvement over Ep1, too - the climax is actually climactic, the plot development much broader and more fun (play Portal first to get the most out of it), the achievements are a laugh, and even the slightly predictable ambush setpiece turns out to be a blast to play through when you do spring the trap. 's all good.

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[Last edited by BeefontheBone at 03-29-2008 10:44 PM]
03-29-2008 at 10:44 PM
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NiroZ wrote:
quote:
Tim wrote:
Is "Imaginary Property" equal to "how much money can I milk out of this thing" or "will people remember that it was me that created it"?
You're dealing with two different extremes. Imaginary property is as much "I want to be attributed for my stuff" as "I want to scrape a living out off my own work"
Perhaps you need some help to answer my puzzle. Perhaps the following hint questions can help you.

If that beautiful work cannot be attributed back to you, is it still your property?
If you stop annoying your customers (for example, stop using DRM), is it still your property?
If you stop "selling" your product to make a living, is it still your property?

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03-30-2008 at 12:45 PM
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quote:
Tim wrote:
quote:
NiroZ wrote:
quote:
Tim wrote:
Is "Imaginary Property" equal to "how much money can I milk out of this thing" or "will people remember that it was me that created it"?
You're dealing with two different extremes. Imaginary property is as much "I want to be attributed for my stuff" as "I want to scrape a living out off my own work"
Perhaps you need some help to answer my puzzle. Perhaps the following hint questions can help you.

If that beautiful work cannot be attributed back to you, is it still your property?
If you stop annoying your customers (for example, stop using DRM), is it still your property?
If you stop "selling" your product to make a living, is it still your property?
Nope, still stuck. But let me makes some guesses...

You don't think DRM works.

You think that any restriction on how people can access property is bad, and anything they offer you should be voluntary.

The artist only wants acknowledgment, they don't give a damn about getting a profit off their work, as that is inherently evil.

Am I getting close?

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03-30-2008 at 02:42 PM
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Tim
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NiroZ wrote:
You don't think DRM works.

You think that any restriction on how people can access property is bad, and anything they offer you should be voluntary.

The artist only wants acknowledgment, they don't give a damn about getting a profit off their work, as that is inherently evil.

Am I getting close?
Almost. ;) It has nothing to do with evilness.

Let me try to explain this in simpler questions:

1) (DRM) Does putting a lock on your house make it your property? No, because there are probably many other ways to prove that the house is yours.
2) (making a living) Just because your painting is worthless (or very valuable), does it make it less yours? No, as "value" is not equal to "ownership".
3) (acknowledgement) If you can't prove that you wrote the book, is it still your book? Probably not.

A common mistake that people make is they make IP Protection (or - worst case - monopolistic behaviour) equals to IP itself.
Perhaps you might want to read Erik's original post in the thread. He never mentioned IP Protection in there, he only says that it shouldn't be free.

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[Last edited by Tim at 03-30-2008 03:33 PM]
03-30-2008 at 03:23 PM
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Banjooie
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NiroZ :(

Why do you refuse to have worthwhile things to say

it`s depressing
03-31-2008 at 12:05 PM
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NiroZ
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Banj :(

Why do you have to always be ambiguous

it's depressing

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04-01-2008 at 05:43 AM
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Banj :(

Why do you have to always be ambiguous

it's depressing


I'm guessing Banj is talking about how you're more or less just asking questions of others instead of contributing your own ideas.

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04-01-2008 at 06:37 AM
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