eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

I disagree with Tim, but not completely. I think that a distinction should be made between tutorials that teach the interface and tutorials that teach how to solve puzzles. I don't think figuring out how to move Beethro or turn the sword or hit an orb is part of the puzzle, and that's the sort of thing I think a tutorial should cover. A tutorial such as this one, aimed at teaching not how to play but rather how to win, is in a sense redundant.

In other words, I consider tutorials to be an interactive form of documentation. Therefore, they should cover the stuff that belongs in the documentation, and not other stuff.

[Edited by eytanz on 09-07-2004 at 10:09 PM GMT]

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

Eytan,

Actually, I think we both mean the same thing.
I still do have some problems explaining things properly in English.
(I don't use it very often, except on this forum. )

-- Tim

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

How about just a tutorial that has one of every monster in a yellow door at the top with scrolls that have what the help file says on them, so that you don't have to dredge through thehelp to find out? and I do know that puttijng a brain in might not be a good idea for beginners, and I KNOW that a roach queen would not really work if it was trapped by a yellow door, which is why I think that the roach queens would be the first monsters to be looked at. Brains - now they could be left for the person to find out themselves when they get to level 20...

Edit:
And hows about having the monsters trapped in a 3x3 square so that the person can move around the enclosement and see how different monsters react to Beethro's sword?

This would be the easiest way to do it I think.

[Edited by wackhead_uk on 09-08-2004 at 03:38 PM GMT]

NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1144
Registered: 06-17-2003
IP: Logged

Tim, in case you didn't realize, that opinion has already been disobeyed. There is a puzzle game made by Suricate Software (Incredibubble) that has a set of training levels, ergo, it shows there are already puzzle games containing tutorials. But it is true that the Incredibubble tutorial merely introduces features, not strategies, and is therefore the type Eytan said he thought was alright. So, I figure one of us could make a DROD tutorial that only shows features, not methods for solving rooms. Sound like a plan?

-Noah

[Edited by NoahT on 09-09-2004 at 03:38 AM GMT]

____________________________
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

My stuff:

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

1. How can an opinion be "disobeyed"?

2. No one is stopping anyone from making a tutorial.

3. My opinions: DROD isn't supposed to be easy. Neither are most puzzle games. Tutorials for these kind of games are meant to introduce the player to the game mechanics and rules, and then leave the player on their own. Sometimes the rules are straightforward and can be put in a help file or summarized on the first screen. Sometimes rules/objects are added as you go along and they are either introduced or the player has to figure them out for themselves. There is very little satisfaction involved in beating a puzzle game without doing the work yourself, which is one reason why people are stingy with the solutions on the Hints and Solutions board. I also think that it hurts the player to introduce objects that they won't see until the end of the dungeon all at once...it's supposed to be fun to see something new. How would people feel if every single new element in JtRH was used in the first level? I think they'd feel pretty cheated.

Personally, I do think that DROD's learning curve is a little steep, but it just helps weed out the players who wouldn't be able to stick it through until the end anyway. It doesn't always work, but it helps.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1939
Registered: 03-07-2004
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
Personally, I do think that DROD's learning curve is a little steep, but it just helps weed out the players who wouldn't be able to stick it through until the end anyway. It doesn't always work, but it helps.

It may just be me, but I found DROD on of the easiest games to get into.

All of the enemies in the game save the brain start out with a kind-of "experimentation room". For the eyes, you had the L3 3N 1E. For the serpent, you had L7 1N1E. For the Tar you had 1S. The roach one was L1 3N2W...In each of those rooms, you could explore and figure out what each enemy does. The only one that didn't really have one was Wraithwings, although L5 served you well for that.

Personally, as long as JtRH kept the same fashion as KDD, I'd be extremly happy. I'd guess that Erik, Mike and the rest of the dev team is targeting those people who have played KDD before and know the working of most of the monsters. Yes, they will want to get new recruits in it as well, but that's why KDD will be a free dungeon. KDD will be the "training mission".

Just my

____________________________
--That guy with a million different aliases since he doesn't like this name anymore.

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

I am not saying that you should not write a tutorial hold. In fact, I hope you make lots of holds, really.

I was saying that I hope that JtRH will be that good that we won't need a tutorial hold. Or someone who has to ask hints for every one of the rooms This is what in puzzle terms called "Learning curve". I have also seen lots of games that have the idea after playtesting: "The gameplay is much too hard, how can we solve this quickly? Let's put a tutorial level in!"

This thread is actually getting way too generic, so I will ask everyone who still wants to continue this discussion to use the "anything" or "general" thread for it. Better yet, create a poll in "General" with "What do you think of the learning curve in DROD?"

-- Tim

____________________________
The best way to lose customers is to let little kids running loose on a forum with too many mod points.

NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1144
Registered: 06-17-2003
IP: Logged

I'm not saying I disagree with learning the game as you go. I was merely pointing out a puzzle game with a tutorial. That's all.

-Noah

____________________________
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

My stuff:

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

KDD as a tutorial? yeesh! Does that mean that level 1 of JtRH will be harder than all of KDD? I dont think I would like that!

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Personally, as long as JtRH kept the same fashion as KDD, I'd be extremly happy. I'd guess that Erik, Mike and the rest of the dev team is targeting those people who have played KDD before and know the working of most of the monsters. Yes, they will want to get new recruits in it as well, but that's why KDD will be a free dungeon. KDD will be the "training mission".

It's been stated repeatedly by the dev team that JtRH will not be targetted at people who already completed KDD. KDD will be downloadable for free but will not be included with the game, and I believe the assumption is that most new DROD players will play it after JtRH (just like user holds), not before.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

west.logan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 608
Registered: 03-09-2011
IP: Logged

There are better tutorials out there. The last room/s were fun and actually had some puzzles (which some tutorials don't seem to have) but it started out pretty basic. I don't think this would interest me in DROD if I played this first and if I hadn't played this first, I wouldn't need it.

____________________________
-Logan