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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Porthole Demo (Now you're puzzling with Portholes!)
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Banjooie
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Question. If she's facing north or south, wouldn't she simply be holding her gun up or down?
01-31-2008 at 09:12 PM
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Neathro
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Was I wrong when I thought you left when the Bureaucracy arrived?
Banj?
Off topic, but back on again now,


Yeah. Portholes moving through walls was a big pain.
Will download new version soon. :) Good game too. Really good.

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[Last edited by Neathro at 01-31-2008 09:31 PM : Fixed Bureaucracy spelling.]
01-31-2008 at 09:30 PM
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RoboBob3000
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quote:
Banjooie wrote:
Question. If she's facing north or south, wouldn't she simply be holding her gun up or down?
Exactly. But the current sprites that Reverus has posted have two characteristics: weapon orientation (all eight directions) and character direction (left or right). Ideally, gun orientation of north or south should be accompanied with a third character direction (neutral). The neutral direction is what Reverus has difficulty drawing.

I'll post the updated version with the Chell sprite integrated in this evening. Then the strangeness of the current north/south situation might be more apparent.

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01-31-2008 at 09:32 PM
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RoboBob3000
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Updated hold in the top post with the Chell graphics added. No other changes right now.

Edit: I've got a workaround in place for multi-use pressure plates now. This is not yet in the latest version posted.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-01-2008 03:47 AM]
02-01-2008 at 03:40 AM
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RoboBob3000
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C-C-C-C-COMBO POST!!!
quote:
mrimer wrote in another thread:
Currently, there's no trivial way to query the NPC's or player's current position or orientation, or to query the state of a room tile. I'm planning to remedy these in a (relatively near) future version of the engine.

If these are to be included in build 55, I'll probably not release another version of this hold until after then. These two things will allow me to simplify a great deal of code and it just won't make sense to continue on with the engine as-is. And Mike, if you wanted to add script commands for "Move to" or "Appear at" that took variables as input for coordinates, please be my guest. And a way to alter movement order without copy-paste involved would be nice too. :)

But otherwise, things are going well with the project. Code for a companion cube looks promising so far. The tricky part has been controlling movement order, since each character demands multiple moves at a time. Otherwise, a companion cube is just a simplification of the Chell character and other characters (turrets, energy balls) shouldn't be much of an extension beyond that. So things are looking up!

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02-03-2008 at 06:00 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
C-C-C-C-COMBO POST!!!
quote:
mrimer wrote in another thread:
Currently, there's no trivial way to query the NPC's or player's current position or orientation, or to query the state of a room tile. I'm planning to remedy these in a (relatively near) future version of the engine.

If these are to be included in build 55, I'll probably not release another version of this hold until after then. These two things will allow me to simplify a great deal of code and it just won't make sense to continue on with the engine as-is. And Mike, if you wanted to add script commands for "Move to" or "Appear at" that took variables as input for coordinates, please be my guest. And a way to alter movement order without copy-paste involved would be nice too. :)

But otherwise, things are going well with the project. Code for a companion cube looks promising so far. The tricky part has been controlling movement order, since each character demands multiple moves at a time. Otherwise, a companion cube is just a simplification of the Chell character and other characters (turrets, energy balls) shouldn't be much of an extension beyond that. So things are looking up!
No, I don't think these will be ready in time for build 55, but at least I've got some of this new code working, and editing the NPC's position will work to give you "Appear at (xvar, yvar)" functionality by setting the invisible NPC's position and then using Appear.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 02-03-2008 08:33 PM]
02-03-2008 at 08:32 PM
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RoboBob3000
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I've updated the hold (in the first post) with a bunch of bug fixes and a couple of new goodies. I haven't changed the text of that first post to include the changes yet, though.

Now you've got a companion cube (mud baby) and a turret (eyeball) to play with in the otherwise unchanged demo level. Their orientation can be altered by dropping them through portholes, and they are both pushable.

The turret can kill you if you are ever in its direct line of sight. It is possible to take cover behind the companion cube. I'm considering disabling the turret if it is on its back. That would be a trivial change.

I haven't used the companion cube graphics that Reverus has provided yet because I still want to give it four orientations. If anybody feels up to making turret graphics (only four major directions needed), please feel free.

As usual, please post whatever bugs you find. I appreciate it a lot. I am aware that you can screw things up if you launch portholes before you make any other movement. So for now, don't do that. :)

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-11-2008 05:54 AM]
02-11-2008 at 05:53 AM
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Someone Else
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You should make the character use the command "Imperative: Critical hero". Then, you would lose the room when you died. Also, you should require the companion cube to get to the end (this isn't quite possible yet).
02-11-2008 at 07:20 PM
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RoboBob3000
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quote:
Someone Else wrote:
You should make the character use the command "Imperative: Critical hero". Then, you would lose the room when you died. Also, you should require the companion cube to get to the end (this isn't quite possible yet).
I tried using Imperative: Critical Hero on the player character, but it doesn't seem to react to Imperative: Die, presumably because the imperative has just changed. Are there other commands that will kill a character?

The current demo room hasn't been designed around the cube or the turret. I've got a plan for implementation of legit non-porthole tiles, and I might redesign the demo room after that. Currently it is possible to cheat-teleport an non-player object somewhere by getting it stuck in the two-wide pit area. That won't be possible with non-porthole tiles. Additionally, I'll soon be moving beyond element creation (almost finished with all of the elements I have planned) and into level design, which will be a beta board process, and as such, the demo room won't get much more attention.

If any CaravelNet member wants part of the beta process, please PM me and I'll grant you access. The board already exists. I'm particularly interested in the optimization-minded.

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02-11-2008 at 07:45 PM
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Monkey
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Yay! Private breaking a hold that breaks DROD to find what caused the break! :P Now I don't have to tell the world how to break a thing that breaks a game!
(okay, I'll stop)

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[Last edited by Monkey at 02-12-2008 12:10 AM]
02-12-2008 at 12:09 AM
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Monkey
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Oh, and does this mean anything to you? It happened when I exited the level.
Assertion error in line 1102 of .\DbHolds.cpp: "roomsExplored.size() < numSecretRooms"
Edit: Wait... it's not hold specific. The game thinks I've entered more secret rooms than there are rooms in the hold.
yay for hints with variable names!

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[Last edited by Monkey at 02-12-2008 03:39 AM]
02-12-2008 at 02:04 AM
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RoboBob3000
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I'm not familiar with the DROD code, but that looks like it's something potentially unrelated to this hold. Can you reproduce it? Is there an exact sequence of actions that will cause it to happen again?

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02-12-2008 at 02:40 AM
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Monkey
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Wait a... since when did changing the room style do anything to code? :(
(false alarm about the error!)

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02-12-2008 at 03:36 AM
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Monkey
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File: wcc.png (377 bytes)
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icon Re: Porthole Demo (+1)  
By the way, just because I had some free time, here's another WCC. I used black for the background so it would stand out better.

edit: oopsies, double post again!

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[Last edited by Monkey at 02-12-2008 03:56 AM]
02-12-2008 at 03:56 AM
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Dictator Reverus
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You can't use black as the background if you want it ingame, Monkey. You have to use a specific shade of gray for it to be transparant. Also since this is a platformer the cube will apear to hover in mid-air since it doesn't touch the floor. Great otherwise.

Attached is a turret. I know it's gun barrels aren't that long, but it was nessacary to help point out the direction it's facing.

By the way, is it too much to ask for sideways momentum, so you can travel at further out of sideways portals too? It's still great without.

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02-14-2008 at 03:29 PM
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Dictator Reverus
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Warning signs, similar to ones in Portal.

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02-14-2008 at 03:30 PM
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Dictator Reverus
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icon Re: Porthole Demo (+1)  
... and grayed out ones.

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02-14-2008 at 03:31 PM
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RoboBob3000
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quote:
Dictator Reverus wrote:
By the way, is it too much to ask for sideways momentum, so you can travel at further out of sideways portals too? It's still great without.
For starters, thanks again for the graphics. They look great, and the warning signs will provide an awesome touch. Looking at your turret graphics makes me realize that I might need to rethink my vision for them. Long story short, these things are going to get flipped around, and as such not every frame will need the legs on the ground. I might need to take into account both leg orientation (NSEW) and gun orientation (left or right side of the turret), which my code doesnít currently do. Still eight frames, no diagonals, but things will get more complicated. Iíll be sure to let everybody know what I decide when I decide.

Regarding horizontal momentum out of portholes, I could never quite decide how to handle that. The functionality is basically there. Every time the player moves left or right, horizontal momentum is increased or decreased by one, then the movement is made, then the momentum is incremented towards zero. I could change the porthole momentum transfer to allow player horizontal momentum to exist outside of the range of -1<x<1, but then we run into some other problems. If PlayerMomentumX = 5, for example, then the player is going to be forced into 5 consecutive rightward moves, unless youíre mashing left, in which case it will be 2 or 3 turns. Also, if youíre pressing right with this pre-existing momentum, under the current engine, the momentum will be conserved! Leaving PlayerMomentumX between -1 and 1 will allow the player to always have control over their horizontal movement, which I think is for the better.

The other thing that I canít work around easily is the fact that gravity is always acting on the player during every move. To get a true horizontal launch (and not just a y = -x situation), I would have to find some way to disrupt or suspend gravity, and I couldnít think of any intuitive way (for myself or the player) to do that.

Your suggestions do make sense, however, for the cube and the turret. Iíve already been messing around with their porthole momentum transfer mechanics and youíll probably see a version featuring that this weekend.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-14-2008 09:08 PM]
02-14-2008 at 09:07 PM
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RoboBob3000
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I've got to make some design decisions that I'd like people's feedback on.

Currently, I'm implementing energy balls. In the actual game, energy balls are generated at their starting points and then fade out after a certain amount of time, at which point they are generated again. I'm debating whether or not to add this functionality, and if I do, how many "turns" should an energy ball last?

If a turret lands on its head (provided graphics don't show that, but this interpretation matches my vision), should it be able to continue firing or should it tip over? Since my portholes don't have a concept of "topness" and "bottomness", there's no way to mirror a turret. If it starts upright facing left, it can only face right through rotation, meaning that it would have to stand on its head to face right. It would make sense to allow this so leftward and rightward turrets aren't fundamentally different, but it would also look strange. My preference would probably be to keep it as it is.

If a turret is falling, should it still be able to fire?

Horizontal object launching through portholes is now possible in the latest version, which I'll likely post tomorrow as I tidy it up. Half of the object's vertical momentum is transferred to horizontal momentum. Take a look at it and tell me what you think. If you have any other suggestions regarding momentum transfer, please let me know.

I've also altered the way gravity affects the player at the peak of a jump. I'd like to know what you think of this style of jumping compared to the current version. Again, this change will be posted with a new version tomorrow.

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02-17-2008 at 08:38 AM
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File: PortholeDemoUpdate2.hold (66.2 KB)
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icon Re: Porthole Demo (+2)  
New version posted here as well as in the top post, all wrapped up in a new demo level.

Changes:

Added energy ball/spawner/receptor.
Modified and added Monkey's WCC graphics. (you don't mind, do you?)
Implemented "no-porthole" tiles.
Added object horizontal momentum when launched from porthole.
Added CanJump character to display when a jump is possible (wubba in lower right).
Altered gravity effects for player. Player no longer pauses for a turn at peak of jump (unless hitting the ceiling).
Added iffy checkpoint functionality.
Enabled a porthole count for use in optimization challenges. (not yet visible in-game)
New demo level displaying all elements.

Additional known bugs:

When only one porthole exists, standing on top of it erroneously increases vertical momentum.
Initialization issues causes multiple object moves at start. Will break if you launch a porthole during this time.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-18-2008 12:29 AM]
02-18-2008 at 12:25 AM
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AtkinsSJ
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I've been following this for a little while now, and I'm really very impressed! I just wonder if you planned to have a style created for it. I'd love to offer, though I have no experience and I'm terrible at getting stuff done. I might have a go at it anyway.
02-18-2008 at 08:44 PM
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RoboBob3000
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Glad you like it. Iím happy that a project like this has been able to drum up community support; Iím certainly going to need it for the aesthetic half of things. This sort of hold just begs for a new style, doesnít it? And maybe blown up versions of Dictator Reverusí warning signs for use as image floor/walls? And maybe an appropriately distorted GladOS voice actor? And maybe Pac-Man-esque video cut scenes?

As always, Iíve got an open invite for anybody who wants to pull any of that kind of stuff together!

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-18-2008 09:09 PM]
02-18-2008 at 09:07 PM
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RoboBob3000
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I was playing around with some of the graphics today and learned just how important it is to place a black border around these sprites. It's unbelievable how much of a difference it makes. I've modified the WCC and the Turret graphics with this change. I'm going to try Chell out tomorrow, but she'll be harder due to her black hair and the blackness of the gun.

I also fixed a bug pointed out by Someone Else where the energy receiver can appear to kill you.

These changes do not yet appear in the posted file.

One more bug found: It is possible to lock yourself into place with two portholes (one vert, one horiz) and an object against a wall. I think I'll probably reallow launching a porthole immediately after teleporting which should provide a pseudo-fix for this. Reworking some of the CanJump logic might solve this too. Or some of the Teleport-Exit-Occupied logic.

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02-20-2008 at 07:11 AM
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Beef Row
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quote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
One more bug found: It is possible to lock yourself into place with two portholes (one vert, one horiz) and an object against a wall. I think I'll probably reallow launching a porthole immediately after teleporting which should provide a pseudo-fix for this. Reworking some of the CanJump logic might solve this too. Or some of the Teleport-Exit-Occupied logic.


Another choice: add the ability to close a porthole without creating a new porthole to replace it. I'm not sure this would have any other uses than getting unstuck, but it wouldn't require a physics change. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually played this yet.. or Portal, for that matter.)

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02-20-2008 at 07:49 AM
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This hold was about as good as Portal: The Flash Version (an internet Portal game). I came across P:TFV somewhere else, later, but Portal: Portholed to DROD (new name?) has the extra advantage of being anyone-edit.

I also like this DROD version because I can usually actually get halfway through it, and because there are no time-limits. :D

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02-20-2008 at 12:39 PM
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quote:
Beef Row wrote:
quote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
One more bug found: It is possible to lock yourself into place with two portholes (one vert, one horiz) and an object against a wall. I think I'll probably reallow launching a porthole immediately after teleporting which should provide a pseudo-fix for this. Reworking some of the CanJump logic might solve this too. Or some of the Teleport-Exit-Occupied logic.


Another choice: add the ability to close a porthole without creating a new porthole to replace it. I'm not sure this would have any other uses than getting unstuck, but it wouldn't require a physics change. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually played this yet.. or Portal, for that matter.)
The problem with adding new abilities is that I'm limited by the number of input commands. I have the eight compass directions, which are being used to simultaneously face a direction and move. I have the two rotation directions, which are used to launch portholes. Finally I have wait, which, well, waits.

I could potentially remove the wait ability and instead have it trigger a question dialog with special commands, but then things start getting clunky. Besides, off the top of my head, I'm not sure a Beethro-wait can be easily detected.

Side note: Before I came up with the current design, I had some atrocious ideas for how this would play out. I planned on using Beethro surrounded by blocking NPCs as the player instead of an NPC outright. And triggering a question dialog was going to be my only method of launching portholes. It was gonna be ugly.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-20-2008 03:43 PM]
02-20-2008 at 03:42 PM
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AtkinsSJ
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Wow, someone modded-up my last post. :)
Anyway, I seem to be making some progress, or at least I can actually get what little I've done to appear in-game. The confusing part will be the walls, showing if they're portal-proof without them looking like floor. If anyone has any ideas, that'd be handy. The pits are another one - I was thinking perhaps some kind of grill could work.
If there are any ideas for the alternate floors also, just say.

EDIT: Oh! I could do slime for one wall style.

[Last edited by AtkinsSJ at 02-20-2008 03:56 PM]
02-20-2008 at 03:54 PM
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quote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
I could potentially remove the wait ability and instead have it trigger a question dialog with special commands, but then things start getting clunky. Besides, off the top of my head, I'm not sure a Beethro-wait can be easily detected.



If you do this, I would greatly appreciate letting rotation, well, rotate. Perhaps the menu should be:
1. Blue Portal
2. Orange Portal
3. Grab Object
4. Close Portals
0. (Undo)

Also, there is no way to detect a wait save from the absence of rotation or bumping.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 02-20-2008 06:25 PM]
02-20-2008 at 06:16 PM
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I think that if you try to shoot a portal right after you leave one, it should close the one that you try to shoot. But you shouldn't allow firing immediately after a teleport.
02-20-2008 at 07:17 PM
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quote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
Modified and added Monkey's WCC graphics. (you don't mind, do you?)
How? :|
No, seriously, I can't tell. Unless you mean the background, then, yeah, it's okay.

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[Last edited by Monkey at 02-21-2008 12:51 AM]
02-21-2008 at 12:50 AM
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