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The spitemaster
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icon e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
I was reading Dark as Day by Chris Sheffield(I think) and it included this formula. I would be fine with this except that many other facts (mainly chemical) conflict with basic high school principles. So I was wondering if anyone could explain it to me.

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01-26-2008 at 12:09 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (+1)  
This is a true statement. It is a very nice formula that comes from Taylor series (polynomial approximations of functions, in this case trigonometric) which combines five of the most famous numbers in all mathematics.

It's a little bit tough to explain, though, depending on where you stand in mathematical knowledge.

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01-26-2008 at 01:05 AM
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The spitemaster
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
I think that I can see where you are coming from. The best I think I could handle is what the Taylor series... but I would most likely just be fooling myself that I understood. :?

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01-26-2008 at 01:18 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
You may be able to understand them, then. Take a look at lines 4, 5, and 6 here. Then, substitute "pi" for x, and evaluate.

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01-26-2008 at 01:30 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (+1)  
Nuntar wrote:Namely, a^(b+c) = a^b x a^c, and a^(bc) = (a^b)^c.

(Apologies to anyone who doesn't like my usage, but I can't stand the use of * for the multiplication operator, outside the specific context of computer programming. The symbol used in mathematics is a cross and always has been as far as I'm concerned.)
That's true. However, it may help to use the Unicode character U+00D7, ×, which you can add to your post by typing in × (html entity references DO work on these forums and on most others). or perhaps (if you want to), the center dot U+00B7, ·, which can also be referred to by ·
01-26-2008 at 02:01 AM
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Sillyman
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Alt-0149 is your friend. It's the proper algebraic multiplication dot. •

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01-26-2008 at 02:21 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Windows Alt codes are horribly nonportable. Furthermore, that's not actually a multiplication sign, that's U+2022, BULLET. It's easier to refer to symbols by Unicode code point, because then you know that something like • will work (see it in action now! •).

That said, however, the • will usually suffice for multiplication, though I find it too large and as such prefer ·.

[Last edited by coppro at 01-26-2008 04:18 AM]
01-26-2008 at 04:16 AM
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Syntax
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
The letter e raised on pie but only an imaganary amount would give you enough that if you added another you'd get nothing.
01-26-2008 at 09:03 PM
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The spitemaster
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Thanks for the insights!

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01-27-2008 at 05:06 AM
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Sillyman
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
coppro wrote:
Furthermore, that's not actually a multiplication sign, that's U+2022, BULLET.

Last time I checked Character Map it called it a multiplication dot...

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FNORD
01-27-2008 at 08:25 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Unicode disagrees.

In case anyone cares, I determined the character code by copy-pasting the bullet into a text file, and manually decoding the UTF-8 sequence (e2 80 a2, in case anyone is still into the habit of caring.).
01-27-2008 at 08:31 AM
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Znirk
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (+1)  
Nuntar wrote:
Firstly we have to define what raising a number to the power of (pi x i) actually means.
Yay! Pixie power!
01-27-2008 at 03:08 PM
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robin
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File: e pi i 1 0.doc (24.5 KB)
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
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I attached a word-file with the exact same thing, but with better x² and x³ and stuff

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02-08-2008 at 11:29 PM
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golfrman
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
It confuses the hell out of me, so it must be true!

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[Last edited by golfrman at 02-09-2008 12:22 AM]
02-09-2008 at 12:21 AM
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Mr. Slice
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
I just found out this problem, though we'll have to replace variables with actual numbers and stuff.

1. We'll use an old rule of math called PEMDAS, it defines the order in which you do math, it means: Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction. It's actually quite useful in situations like these, you'll see down below.

2. Using PEMDAS, we parenthesis first. (i*pi), the only way to get 0 would be to say (0*3.14). This will result in 0.

3. Now that we've got our basis, we can move on to Exponents. e^0(we figured out zero in the last paragraph) If we did 10^0, it would equal 1, which plus 1 in the later part of the problem is 2, which is wrong. 0^0 would be 0, but plus 1 would equal 1, which is also wrong. I'll say that e=-1 for now. -1^0 will equal -1, because 10^0 equaled 1, we'll use that same idea here.

4. Last part of the problem. We've figured out from the last two parts that e^(i*pi) will eventually equal -1. The last part of the problem, -1 plus 1, equals 0.

Is this correct?

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02-09-2008 at 12:38 AM
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robin
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Mr. Slice wrote:
I just found out this problem, though we'll have to replace variables with actual numbers and stuff.

1. We'll use an old rule of math called PEMDAS, it defines the order in which you do math, it means: Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction. It's actually quite useful in situations like these, you'll see down below.

2. Using PEMDAS, we parenthesis first. (i*pi), the only way to get 0 would be to say (0*3.14). This will result in 0.

3. Now that we've got our basis, we can move on to Exponents. e^0(we figured out zero in the last paragraph) If we did 10^0, it would equal 1, which plus 1 in the later part of the problem is 2, which is wrong. 0^0 would be 0, but plus 1 would equal 1, which is also wrong. I'll say that e=-1 for now. -1^0 will equal -1, because 10^0 equaled 1, we'll use that same idea here.

4. Last part of the problem. We've figured out from the last two parts that e^(i*pi) will eventually equal -1. The last part of the problem, -1 plus 1, equals 0.

Is this correct?

sorry, but nope

0^0 is not defined
e=2,718281828459...
i²=-1 because (-1)^2 is no element of Real numbers

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[Last edited by robin at 02-09-2008 12:45 AM]
02-09-2008 at 12:43 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
No, because both e and i in this case are well-defined variables.

e is the base of the natural logarithm, 2.71828...
i is the square root of -1, and it does not exist in the real number continuum.
02-09-2008 at 12:45 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
If the phrase "Taylor series" makes you go "huh?", you should not be attempting this proof.

Also, if you believe (-1)^0=-1, you should not be attempting this proof.

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02-09-2008 at 01:58 AM
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Mr. Slice
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Taylor series... huh?

(-1)^0=-1...

I still attempted it, but only in my own math world context. I can barely understand that crap that's going on here, let alone the answers! Sigh... I really need to learn the dark side of math. At least I understood the question. Well, almost.

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02-09-2008 at 03:17 AM
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robin
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
if you download the file that I attached, it will be more understandable (maybe). because there numbers and letters that need to stand higher and lower in the sentence. for instance: x"²" and stuff like this

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02-09-2008 at 08:33 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Okay.

Slice, you're, like, ten. The fact you understand exponents is kinda cool, but here's the deal.

n^2 = n*n
n^1 = n
n^0 = 1
n^-1 = 1/n
I think n^-2 = 1/n^2 but gaaaah I haven't done math in forever

E is a specific number it's some sort of ratio I think it has to do with the golden ratio or something.
02-09-2008 at 09:01 AM
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hartleyhair
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
I think n^-2 = 1/n^2 but gaaaah I haven't done math in forever


As far as I know, that's the case.

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02-09-2008 at 09:15 AM
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Znirk
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Banjooie wrote:
E is a specific number it's some sort of ratio I think it has to do with the golden ratio or something.
I'm way out of my depth here, but I think you're thinking of sqrt(2).

e is something to do with ln, I think ... but don't ask what that means, because I have no clue why the "natural" logarithm is more important than others.
02-09-2008 at 09:32 AM
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Dex Stewart
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
e is the limit of (1+1/n)^n with n -> infinity.
f(x)=e^x is also the only function which is it's own derivative.
The golden ratio is something totally different. If (a+b)/a=a/b then a/b = the golden ratio.
02-09-2008 at 09:37 AM
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TripleM
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (+1)  
Golden ratio is (1+sqrt(5))/2. But anyway.
And Dex, you mean only non trivial function ;)

[Last edited by TripleM at 02-09-2008 09:47 AM]
02-09-2008 at 09:46 AM
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Beef Row
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
TripleM wrote:
And Dex, you mean only non trivial function ;)

Well, I don't see how c*e^x is more trivial than e^x. And since c*e^x actually includes the trivial 0 case, better to just say that IT is the only function which is its own derivative.

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02-09-2008 at 10:24 AM
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Timo006
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
Banjooie wrote:
n^0 = 1

Does this also mean that 0^0=1?

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[Last edited by Timo006 at 02-11-2008 03:58 PM]
02-11-2008 at 03:58 PM
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Penumbra
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (+1)  
Timo006 wrote:
Does this also mean that 0^0=1?
0^0 is undefined. Although, you could assign it the value of 0 or 1, based on convenience. Look here for some more information.
02-11-2008 at 04:15 PM
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BeefontheBone
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (+1)  
Beef Row wrote:
TripleM wrote:
And Dex, you mean only non trivial function ;)

Well, I don't see how c*e^x is more trivial than e^x. And since c*e^x actually includes the trivial 0 case, better to just say that IT is the only function which is its own derivative.
Other than x=0, which is probably the more trivial example TripleM was referring to :)

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02-11-2008 at 07:02 PM
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Mr. Slice
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icon Re: e^(i*pi) +1 = 0 (0)  
0^0 may not be defined, but since 0^1 is 1, I could say that 0^0 is 0.

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02-11-2008 at 11:20 PM
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