Mattcrampy
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I'v been having this idea kicking around for a while. I'm not sure it's a good fit as a mechanic for DROD, as in DROD every turn corresponds to one and only one move, but maybe it'd be useful for a beginner hold or perhaps a future game designed as a kinder, gentler DROD (in which case it'd be the default, I suspect). It does have some potential as a puzzle element, though it breaks some important rules.

Anyway: the Shield potion causes Beethro to be pushed back one square when he is attacked, instead of him dying. If he is pushed back into a square he is not able to walk on (including a monster), he dies.

The implications of this are obvious, but there are still lots of wrinkles. For instance, Beethro would still be done in when surrounded by roaches. It would give him the opportunity to kill two roaches in one turn, if he moves the right way. More interestingly, it makes small, confined spaces more lethal than wide open spaces, as Beethro can be bumped back further in a wide open space.

There's two options for how often Beethro can be pushed: my preferred option is that Beethro can only be pushed once per turn, and after that he dies, as it means that it's clearer which monster pushed Beethro and thus why he's been moved by the computer. The other option is that everyone gets to push, which certainly makes the game easier but can result in situations where Beethro pinballs around the room, with no clear reason as to why; and can also result in situations where Beethro gets stuck in a loop, for instance with four seep arranged in a square.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 10-16-2007 04:51 AM]

Rabscuttle
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Multiple pushes: Loops wouldn't be possible (within a single turn) because each monster would only get one turn to push.

Beethro teleporting across a room because of multiple pushes would be cool (but yeah, confusing) There's already a bit of that weirdness with mirrors and lotsa of swords, but that situation is a lot rarer than Beethro fighting some roaches.

Seep that leap out of the wall and push would presumably die on the subsequent turn. Maybe seep should ignore the potion?

Beef Row
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Seep that leap out of the wall and push would presumably die on the subsequent turn. Maybe seep should ignore the potion?

Hmm. This would be interesting with waterskippers, since you could guide them gradually onto land (but don't let them push you back in the water!). Lots of reasons you could need to do this (hot tiles, pressure plates, serpent kills, etc).

Also puzzles involving posistioning your sword while a serpent pushes you around and you must hit orbs and occasionally move to avoid being crushed by it (much like ball puzzles in wonderquest,
actually).

Immediate questions:
-Would briars push or kill?
-Would swords push or kill?
-Would fegundos push or explode?
(I'm assuming any explosion would still kill).
-Would pushing provoke mimic movement?

Though this does seem to bring some interesting ideas, I'm wondering if a potion is the best approach to this? It might be better to have a specific monster with the push ability, since then there's also the risk of being pushed toward other monsters, who CAN kill you. As a monster I'd picture this as something heavily armored which can curl into a ball (like a pillbug or armadillo. Not actually one of those, just for the armored ball imagery).

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Rabscuttle
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Also wubbas are now scary.

Beef Row
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Also wubbas are now scary.

Technically, I don't think wubbas actually attempt to move into your space and fail, do they? They just get next to you and stay. So they probably wouldn't push you anymore than Halph would. In fact, are we sure Halph isn't half-wubba?

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Someone Else
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I think this would work best as a potion, and that briars and swords should kill. Also, fegundoes would explode, and also push you (with the explosion). Since Beethro is not actually moving by himself, it would not provoke mimic movement.

I don't think that Beethro could be pushed onto potions, as that would cause some confusing issues with movement order.

Maybe, instead of mimics moving when Beethro gets pushed, they can get pushed by monsters as well. This would allow for all monsters to kill mimics, at least some of the time.

I have had an idea about the most evil implementation of this. Would wubbas be able to push? If so, we could make them unable to kill, only to make non-killing pushes (making Beethro's sword hit a bomb would still be legitimate).

Since adders completely eat their food (and it would make them much too easy to kill) maybe they would be unaffected.

How about platforms? Would Beethro get pushed off, or move it?

Despite all my questions and opinions, I heartily agree with this suggestion.

EDIT:
Double post collision.

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[Last edited by Someone Else at 10-16-2007 07:17 AM]

Mattcrampy
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The idea was that, without the potion, Beethro would stand there like a stunned mullet - something is interfering on his behalf.

So: briar and swords would push, fegundos would kill, mimics would not respond. Floating platforms would not move, and so Beethro could be pushed off those.

I didn't think wubbas would push, because it makes them like dumb roaches who can't be killed. But perhaps that's an interesting use of the mechanic?

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Rabscuttle
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Of course wubbas are trying to move onto you - they have no resepect for personal space.

I recommend turning wubbas into oppressive little killing machines.

Ezlo
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I'm not sure I like the idea of a shield potion, but I do like the idea of a strong breed of wubbas that can push you, that sounds like evil fun!

zonhin
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This is way to complicated to work in any game ever. This is the kind of thing that turns programmers into evil geniuses that make games like La-Mulana.

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The spitemaster
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I think that explosions would not kill Beethro. The picture I get would be his hair getting singed but nothing else.

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Jatopian
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Of course wubbas are trying to make a move on you - they have no respect for personal space.

Beef Row wrote:
In fact, are we sure Halph isn't half-wubba?

Guys, I think a pushy wubba may have seduced Vonnifa Budkin.
I wanna be your wubba baby; I need somebody to wub...

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Mattcrampy
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zonhin wrote:
This is way to complicated to work in any game ever. This is the kind of thing that turns programmers into evil geniuses that make games like La-Mulana.

Could you explain what about it is so complicated? It seems relatively simple to me, you just duplicate the movement of whatever attacked Beethro and then check to see if Beethro is standing on something he can't, and if so, kill him.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 10-17-2007 02:44 AM]

Garlonuss
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I think there is potential with this idea, but I am curious about the way it will appear when Beethro dies. If he's pushed off a ledge, we do the same thing as when he's on a bridge that falls down. But what if he's pushed into a wall? Would he just be pushed on top of the wall then spin around screaming? Would we create a new animation showing him getting squished?

Also, I would assume there would be some kind of visual representation of the shield potion. Maybe a white outline around Beethro (not my first choice since it would require a new graphic for each direction), or maybe a 25% blend of a colored square or circle on top of Beethro?


Here's something, though. Would the shield potion protect his sword from Oremites? If so, he wouldn't have to sheathe it. Or it could be decided that the shield potion only makes a difference where Beethro would be pushed.
(Maybe the shield potion works so strongly that it won't even let Beethro step onto Oremites while the potion is active? This'd create a mechanism for explicitly limiting the potion if the architect wishes.)

There'd be good reasons (both logically and from a puzzle standpoint) to decide either way, but I don't know which arguments are ... um ... gooder?

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Briareos
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Garlonuss wrote:
Maybe a white outline around Beethro (not my first choice since it would require a new graphic for each direction)

Ummm... isn't there code in the game already to draw outlines on the fonts? Can't that be reused here?

np: Underworld - Faxed Invitation (Oblivion With Bells)

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Someone Else
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Garlonuss wrote:
(Maybe the shield potion works so strongly that it won't even let Beethro step onto Oremites while the potion is active? This'd create a mechanism for explicitly limiting the potion if the architect wishes.)

I think that this would work, but getting pushed onto oremites doesn't kill Beethro, it just prematurely ends the effects of the potion.

coppro
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Briareos wrote:
Ummm... isn't there code in the game already to draw outlines on the fonts? Can't that be reused here?

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: with just a teensy bit of work.

Mattcrampy
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I'd think that if Beethro couldn't be pushed back, he wouldn't move and the enemy that would kill him will attack as normal.

Re: oremites - I think the potion probably changes enough that making it affect oremites as well is probably overloading things too much.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 10-18-2007 03:02 AM]

coppro
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I'd think that if Beethro couldn't be pushed back, he wouldn't move and the enemy that would kill him will attack as normal.

That'd be easier to write, too (in terms of coding)

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[Last edited by coppro at 10-18-2007 02:49 AM]

Someone Else
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You know, you're probably right about oremites. It's just that people like logical things better, and you have to code these logical things in right away (if having it affect oremites is logical in the first place). Besides, it's not really hard to remember if it starts that way. Look how people have adapted to TCB!

Sillyman
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Beef Row wrote:
-Would briars push or kill?
-Would swords push or kill?
-Would fegundos push or explode?
(I'm assuming any explosion would still kill).
-Would pushing provoke mimic movement?

The shield potion is, essentially, a shield, so I don't see why the spikyness should effect it. And fegundos eat, not explode, the player, according to what is seen when you die from a fegundo running into you. Pushing shouldn't provoke mimics, as they mirror your voluntary actions.

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Jatopian
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Sillyman wrote:
And fegundos eat, not explode, the player, according to what is seen when you die from a fegundo running into you.

Yeah, but that's inconsistent with every other flesh&blood entity and I for one am ignoring that. In fact, let me go post a bug report right now...

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eb0ny
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How about implementing an actual shield? It would protect the direction the player is facing and two surrounding directions. If something tries to attack player from protected side, the player is pushed back. The shield would be gainable via shield tokens.

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