DGM
Level: Master Delver
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TCB has given architects many new toys to play with, and some are already using them to create rather un-DROD-like holds. In fact, I daresay that this SOKOBAN business indicates that DROD is becoming a game-creation engine in its own right.

As I'm working on my own puzzle game, I'm curious as to how focused I should be in including new game elements. At what point (if any) does versatility start hurting such a game more than helping it?

Please give your reasoning.

EDIT: I should probably rephrase the question a bit - at what point do the benefits of adding new elements (increased versatility) stop outweighing the drawbacks (such as difficulty in learning and remembering what everything is and does)? Versatility in and of itself is rarely a bad thing, it's the price attached that I'm thinking of.

EDIT: The first follow-up to this poll is here.

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-07-2007 01:17 AM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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The more the merrier.

Though, if the elemnts get confusing, or useless, then they are useless . Like the great rule - Good feature is feature with puzzle potential.

Though, the happiness and enjoyment potential should be considered too...

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:37 PM : Going to the keep]

vittro
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The more the merrier.

See how I made a really cool hold ( City of Challenges ) with dynamic money ( greckels ) system and lots of custom NPCs?

And my hold is not un-DROD like, because, the only new element is the money, but there are always rooms, challenges and really big sword TM smiting action.

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DGM
Level: Master Delver
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DGM
Level: Master Delver
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vittro wrote:
And my hold is not un-DROD like, because, the only new element is the money, but there are always rooms, challenges and really big sword TM smiting action.

I suppose I should clarify. What I meant by "un-DROD-like" was any fundamental style of puzzle that wasn't possible from the beginning (or at least, from KDD). The potential for push-block puzzles and variable-based puzzles (like money) are new to TCB, AFAIK.

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Banjooie
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WEll, in theory, there were puzzles from the start that weren't really compatible with DROD's entire theory: See the Palace of Puzzles.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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DGM wrote:
So you're arguing that any number of puzzle elements is okay, as long as each one brings something new to the table?

No. I'm saying that adding stupid, useless and pointless things has no point in it. But if thing ADDS something, while not adding puzzle potential (Like Speech, which allows Plot, etc) is good too.
For example, adding another roach enemy, which only differs with gfx or some really minor movement, like preferring horizontal over vertical movement is stupid, but adding weather effects was good, even though it has no puzzle potential.
In other words:
Roach 2 - New gfx, mover like roach, but prefers horizontal move over vertical (When sliding). Really, really little puzzle potential.
Versus
Weather effects - adds mood, and all that stuff, looks cool. No puzzle potential.

For me, weather wins.

Hmm, I think I got a bit carried away ^^;.

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:55 PM : Going to the keep]

DGM
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Banjooie wrote:
WEll, in theory, there were puzzles from the start that weren't really compatible with DROD's entire theory: See the Palace of Puzzles.

I guess "un-DROD-like" was just poor wording on my part, then.

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DGM
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skell wrote:

DGM wrote:
So you're arguing that any number of puzzle elements is okay, as long as each one brings something new to the table?

No. I'm saying that adding stupid, useless and pointless things has no point in it. But if thing ADDS something, while not adding puzzle potential (Like Speech, which allows Plot, etc) is good too.
For example, adding another roach enemy, which only differs with gfx or some really minor movement, like preferring horizontal over vertical movement is stupid,

That's what I meant by "brings something new." Of course we don't need yet another minor varient on the roach. I mean as long as each new element (or set of elements, for things like bombs/fuses) makes very different kinds of puzzles possible, any number is okay.

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-04-2007 10:28 PM]

stigant
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I think there's a limit. I'm not sure what it is or if DROD has it or has passed it yet, but there's definitly a limit. I would have answered this question differently 4 days ago. I think the real key in adding new elements is to make sure:
1. they bring something genuinely novel to the experience,
2. they work well with or even extend the utility of other elements and
3. their behavior is reasonably intuitive or easy to grasp, but complex enough to make interesting puzzles.
All the while remember that the human brain can only handle so much complexity.

I thought JtRH did a better job of minding these rules than TCB has (so far... I haven't finished yet). When I was working through JtRH, I constantly thought, wow that element is great! I can see a whole bunch of puzzle ideas for it. And I never thought huh, I can't can't keep up with all the new elements. The one element I didn't like at the time (golems) have grown on me since then now that I know how to handle them. There have been a number of elements in TCB where I thought, this isn't bringing a whole lot new to the table () or there's too much... I can't keep things straight (pressure plates). Admitedly, JtRH introduced new elements at a much slower pace.

If you want an example of when to say when, I would look at SubTerra. There are so many different rules and interactions, its almost impossible to keep track. Everything interacts differently with everything else. There's no logical consistency.

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skell
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stigant wrote:
I didn't like at the time (golems) have grown on me since then now that I know how to handle them.

The same will go with new elements. You will slowly begin to getting hang of them, and then finally you'll say that you want more .

You have few years to get used to them, before next DROD release .

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:33 PM : Going to the keep]

piderman
Level: Delver

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Well, lots of versatility is nice, especially since it may spawn clones of other games at no extra cost, like Sokoban.
On the other hand, new stuff does have to fit into the environment. Things like rotating arrows are a nice addition that do very much add to the puzzle potential, but those rotation tiles look horribly out of place.
Also, pressure plates are a neat idea, but there's 3 different types, and they are almost indistinguishable from each other, especially the single/multi use ones. There's only so many tiles you can invent until the floor becomes one giant mosaique of obscure tiles and you can't figure out the puzzle anymore...

So to sum my 2 cents up: Innovation and new elements is nice, but keep it manageable and the graphics in context

MartianInvader
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I think one of the key aspects of elements is the speed at which they're introduced. If you take someone who's never played DROD before and throw a puzzle at them that uses a whole lot of the TCB elements, they'll be confused no matter how carefully you explain it to them. But, of course, most people who are playing TCB right now have not only played through JtRH, they've seen a zillion additional holds using JtRH elements, to the point where interacting with them has become instinctive.
Once players have really gotten an instinctive handle on one set of elements, it's fine to introduce a few more; you won't add any confusion. And if you just leave a few elements for a long period of time, people will get bored with them and eventually (though it may take a long time) exhaust the creative uses. So really I think it's about matching the number of elements to the length of your game, and then introducing them bit by bit as the game progresses.

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Someone Else
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I totally agree. I used to think that you didn't need any more than DROD 1.0 elements, but now I can't build a hold without using something else. I think it will be the same with TCB.

zex20913
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I think that elephants are easier to swallow in fewer bites. What I mean is that, sort of how MartianInvader was saying, we've got a lot a lot of elements, and newbies may suffer for it. However, those of us who have been introduced to the elements, and see more, can tolerate more. I think that the SS style (add elements, and showcase them in the SS) will be good for our tolerance. I felt a bit overwhelmed in TCB. Spoiler ahead: Essentially end of game. Level 9.

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 04-05-2007 03:36 AM]

AtkinsSJ
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I likewise feel overwhelmed. The new elements are added, with lots of time to get used to them, but as I'm still not great at golem and wraithwing movement, I've had trouble.
From what I've seen as for other elements, it seems there's now nothing that will be left out. Swordless levels, sokoban puzzles, laser/mirror puzzles; all things that we'd previously been told were Really Big No-Nos. I don't want to complain, but it's a lot more complicated than things were in KDD and JtRH.

EDIT: I haven't actually gotten to these elements yet, this was just from what I'd read. I'm sure the levels will be awesome.

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[Last edited by AtkinsSJ at 04-05-2007 12:38 PM]

DGM
Level: Master Delver
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Hmm... Thanks, everyone. The results have surprised me, and have definitely changed my thinking on how I should support The Dungeon. I may have to make a more detailed, multi-question poll to explore this further.

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Monkey
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All of a sudden I want to change my vote.

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DGM
Level: Master Delver
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Monkey wrote:
All of a sudden I want to change my vote.

From what to what, and why?

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Yellow_Mage
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There is enough to keep people bust for a few years or so. I've already thought of some really interesting things I could do from the plethroa of elements (plus think about element interactions).

DROD 1.6 - my brain juice was pretty dry since many good architects made decent holds, and I could only make similar rooms and puzzles but worse (being new at it).

DROD 2 - just the ticket to feed a starving man. Plus I felt many JtRH holds I played didn't capitalise on many features in JrTH, so I started to make one as an example. Too bad I'm so damn slow... sorry. >:3

Even now, there are many things that haven't been thought of/explored using what is available in JtRH, not necessarily lynchpins, but just a combination of elements, possible use more scripting as puzzle elements as people tend to want to be purist (beh, my pressure plates are so dated...).

TCB would keep many a hobbyist architect busy for a few months, but some people might be over zealous enough to make an epic hold (tho' that would be the wrong thing to do) because they have a lot to work with to be easily inspired.

There is a limit - there would be just too much stuff that can be used in similar ways. I remember some really clever DROD1 holds that had some awesome rooms. But more things could be in DROD and if they make sense being in, it wouldn't hurt.

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skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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I also want to change my vote, from first to second. Though since the beginning I thought that there are limits, but I misinterpreted the answers.

I'll agree with Yellow_Mage in one - current number of elements is enough for quite a long time. People should feel fit with these fort year or two, but then the "I want more" feeling will come, and time for new DROD, with new elements, and then people will be fit again, and it will keep repeating, until the very moment where DROD will be fully customizable .

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:28 PM : Going to the keep]