eytanz
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Yup, you heard me. I'm asking for the restoration of a feature that was in Webfoot but changed for Caravel. And that's because I've recently become more and more convinced that the change was a mistake, and that it caused way more harm to the game than good.

This came to me as I was trying to solve Clayton's tar maze. It is a very difficult room - for two seperate reasons. A, you need to navigate through a maze where any mistake means that you end up flanked by tar babies, or stuck. This is a very fun and interesting challenge. B, you don't actually know the path you need to take - so you can't plan ahead; you just need to make a small bit of progress each time, die or get stuck, and repeat the whole thing. This is tedious and annoying.

And there's no simple way to avoid this - there's no foolproof way to show the path and then design the maze.

Revealing the path on the map would solve the problem. It would return the tar maze rooms from being a game of trial and error to being a game of puzzle solving and strategy, which is what DROD should be. Yes, there are some rooms in Dugan's Dungeon that will suffer - but that's because they aren't interesting rooms, and rely on tar hiding the path as a gimmick. Most of the tar maze rooms in DD will still be interesting, because the challenge isn't just finding the path, it's traversing it.

In short, hiding information isn't a good thing in DROD. I feel the decision to do so was misguided, and I would like it reversed.

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zex20913
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I think that the only problems with this are that the map is quite small. It would be very hard to see the path that is required, regardless of the walls or not. Additionally, we would need to see yellow doors under the tar for Clayton's maze to have this effect.

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DiMono
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Perhaps you should be able to see walls and doors under tar you've spliced again? How does that sound to both of you? (wow, I've never sounded more like my dad than just now...)

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eytanz
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That won't work. First, if you uncover a wall, the tar can't regrow there anyway; you could say that the map will remain even if you die, but that opens a whole new can of worms, because the map isn't currently dynamic in that way.

Most importantly, though, it will defeat the spirit of my request - that tar could no longer be used to (fully) hide the path from you.

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zex20913
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While this is a gimmick, I think it is one I can live with. I don't have any problems with rooms like level 11's. Clayton's maze is too much, I will agree, but I think that tar covered walls are acceptable. Just not to an extreme.

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NoahT
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zex20913 wrote:
While this is a gimmick, I think it is one I can live with. I don't have any problems with rooms like level 11's. Clayton's maze is too much, I will agree, but I think that tar covered walls are acceptable. Just not to an extreme.

Well for me, I'd say 11 was easier in Webfoot DROD, thanks to the fact that like Eytan's request, tar wasn't shown on the Webfoot maps. Perhaps a way this could be resolved is for there to be some new map colors, like blue-violet for tar-covered walls and brown for tar-covered yellow doors. Just a thought.

-Noah

[Edited by NoahT on 09-27-2003 at 01:43 AM GMT: Missing word]

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agaricus5
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DiMono wrote:
Perhaps you should be able to see walls and doors under tar you've spliced again? How does that sound to both of you? (wow, I've never sounded more like my dad than just now...)

What about a half-way thing - the map updates to show walls/doors you've uncovered from the tar, even when you restart, so you get black/yellow lines in the purple section of Tar. This allows you to see what you've done so far, help you not to forget where thngs are, and still hide things you don't want to see from the player until he has seen them.

Does this sound alright?

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Aris Katsaris
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Hello, DROD newbie here. Just finished the game, loved it, and thought to come and check out the forums.

I am not sure like the idea of the map showing things not visible in the main screen -- in that case the map would become a tool to actively use rather than the convenience it is today...

In that case (the idea that map and visibility coincide) it seems to me that the request becomes that walls should be visible under the tar -- how would you guys feel about that being the case? e.g. a small variation in the graphic of the tar at that point showing that a wall is located underneath? E.g. by showing the tar at that point slightly swollen or off-coloured or something?

Completely transparent tar is another idea if the idea of differently colored tars from another thread comes into fruition. Indeed - if differently colored tars happen then I think that a transparent tar would be a good thing to have.

zex20913
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I'm not sure about the transparent tar bit. I think rooms would become far too easy with that. For example, if we could see through tar, level eleven would be completely pointless (Dugan's). While it may add ease to rooms like Claythro's maze o' helltar, it would not be of benefit to architects or high-level players. A feature should be good for everyone.

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eytanz
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Ok, guess I'm seriously outvoted here.



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Schik
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Hey, I'm on your side! I think tar over walls is not much of a puzzle, it's all trial-and-error without a whole lot of thinking involved. I hate tar over walls, and agree with eytanz - SOME sort of indication that a wall is under some tar would bring the focus back to puzzle solving.

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Mister
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What about showing walls with tar, but allowing crumbly walls under tar? That why there can be a path that can't be seen in the map.

zex20913
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More than likely any way that this issue is handled, there will be somebody who disagrees with whatever is done. We should probably leave it as it stands. Yes, this does side with my argument, but it is easier for the coding as well, and we want a release shortly. So...yeah.

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eytanz
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Oh, in any case, I was talking about future releases. I really don't think that this is something that should slow down the release.

For 1.7, or 1.8, or whatever, I think that the map should be revised to be more useful in general (for instance, you should be able to see the whole level without entering the restore screen). At that time, it would be appropriate to reconsider other map-related issues such as this one.

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The_Red_Hawk
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I think it would be nice to have an option, like we can decide if a room is required. Maybe that would be too tedious, though. I guess Dugan's Level 11 would stay with walls covered.

I was reading the posts, and think that this solution might conceivably satisfy nearly everyone.

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StuartK
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How about a floor tile, which when stood on, makes the tar see-through? Or a definable section of tar, like a big magnifying glass? Definable by the hold author if it's a tile, definable by the player if it's a potion. Like showing a 10x10 block centered around a specific area. After moving (or X moves later) the tar reverts to opaque.

Or make the tar slightly 'bumpy' if there's something underneath it. A subtle visual difference, like walls vs crumbly walls.

agaricus5
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StuartK wrote:
Or make the tar slightly 'bumpy' if there's something underneath it. A subtle visual difference, like walls vs crumbly walls.

I don't think tar has enough surface tension to do this - it should just collapse and flow outwards again. Incidentally, I was told things cannot climb over walls as it's a dungeon - the walls go right up to the ceiling. How does tar get over the walls in the first place?

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Oneiromancer
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I don't know, how does Beethro see through the walls to all the other monsters in the room? This has probably been discussed before, I know...

It is a very good question, because how did the tar get on top of the wall if it cannot grow onto it when there is a tar mother around? Or how does tar fill up a pit? That's just the way it is...that's my answer!

Game on,

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eytanz
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Tar is just very slow in growing over walls - it can do so over weeks, not minutes.

There, a quick and easy rational explanation.

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zex20913
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Tar fills up pits? I think I missed something here...

My explanation for the walls? There is a time distortion greater than Beethro's movement, and when he destroys tar that is over a wall the architect pauses the game and places a wall.

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trick
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My theory is that the tar doesn't actually grow over the walls (which is, after all, impossible, as they're attached to the roof), but into them. Small cracks and openings in the walls are saturated with tar, over time. Over shorter periods, the wall is able to keep the tar out.

This doesn't explain how tar babies can form on top of (or inside the) walls, which I explain by magic (well, duh!).

- Gerry

Oneiromancer
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zex20913 wrote:
Tar fills up pits? I think I missed something here...

Sorry...I thought you could place tar over pits just like for walls, doors, and statues. But you are right, you cannot do this. I should have known, because I am sure I tried this at one point, but forgot.

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 11-04-2003 at 11:40 PM GMT]

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StuartK
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trick wrote:
My theory is that the tar doesn't actually grow over the walls (which is, after all, impossible, as they're attached to the roof), but into them. Small cracks and openings in the walls are saturated with tar, over time. Over shorter periods, the wall is able to keep the tar out.

If that were the case, you'd expect the wall to disappear when you stab the tar, unless the wall is left impregnated with the stuff.

How about it just digests the walls, top down (tar exposed to air is slightly corrosive?) Of course, once the wall is low enough, the tar would flow over it, and digestion cease.

This doesn't explain how tar babies can form on top of (or inside the) walls, which I explain by magic (well, duh!).

How much tar does a tar baby need to form? Are they hollow, in order to harvest food for tar mothers? If the tar is, say, 1ft over the wall, there'll be enough to create a tar baby. Any excess is either dispersed around the area, or drawn into the main body of tar (some new ingame animations could make this look really cool) Likewise, if the tar is only slightly above the wall, extra tar will be drawn in from the surrounding area to create the tar baby.

Are we getting sidetracked yet?

How about my suggestions regarding floor plates/potions to view walls under tar, or slightly differentiating tar and tar+wall?

Perhaps it would be possible to make tar 'ripple' when destroying it, which would reveal an outline of a small area infront of Beethro, subject to where walls are, which would block or reflect the ripple.

agaricus5
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StuartK wrote:
How about my suggestions regarding floor plates/potions to view walls under tar, or slightly differentiating tar and tar+wall?

Perhaps it would be possible to make tar 'ripple' when destroying it, which would reveal an outline of a small area infront of Beethro, subject to where walls are, which would block or reflect the ripple.

I still think tar has too much surface tension to do this (Remember that you can't stab corners), meaning if it can ripple, it suggests it has enough liquid properties to deform like that. Perhaps there should be a sort of shadowed tar over walls, the explanation for which is that tar on walls changes density and make-up slightly to stop it flowing off the wall and splitting into two tar masses on either side of the wall. Alternatively, if you use a magnifying glass/potion to see them, walls could appear as a shadow under the tar.

Just some thoughts...

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Mattcrampy
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Personally, I'd suggest something along the lines of the paint in Mario Sunshine (anyone seen that?) - the paint swallows up anything it covers. So then clearing the tar from a space where there's wall will cause the wall to rise up and reappear.

Anything you can actually see under the tar is just being warped by the denseness of the stuff.

Yeah, that's it.

Matt

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NoahT
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I think it would be nice to have an option, like we can decide if a room is required.

Um...there already is an option to do this, in case you overlooked it. In the room settings box is a "Room is Required" option.

Sorry if anyone thinks I'm stating the obvious...

-Noah

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Oneiromancer
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No, he is stating that he thinks that having walls under tar appear on maps should be an option, like the way that deciding whether or not a room is required is an option. His statement could be taken both ways if by itself, but in the context of this topic it was pretty apparent what he meant.

Game on,

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zex20913
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But on that topic, I don't think an option would be good. Erik (and others) hates options because they require two times as much testing. An option ought to be necessary, and not simply an appeasement.

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StuartK
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agaricus5 wrote:
I still think tar has too much surface tension to do this (Remember that you can't stab corners), meaning if it can ripple, it suggests it has enough liquid properties to deform like that.

Maybe it doesn't ripple in the liquid sense, perhaps it's a damage response. Or if it is a ripple, perhaps the surface layer of the tar is less dense than underneath.

Perhaps there should be a sort of shadowed tar over walls, the explanation for which is that tar on walls changes density and make-up slightly to stop it flowing off the wall and splitting into two tar masses on either side of the wall. Alternatively, if you use a magnifying glass/potion to see them, walls could appear as a shadow under the tar.

Just some thoughts...

Tar is opaque...? We'll have to ask Beethro to perform some tests with a torch. Hmmm. Does tar burn?


Anyway, how about we consider it from a purely gameplay point of view (then if the idea is good, we could shoe in the science afterwards...)

1) Floor plates. The hold author could choose what areas to reveal at what point, staging the room.

2) Potion 1. Beethro would have a one use magnifying glass/torch/flare to use at any point on the screen. After use, the revealed area could either disappear on the next turn, or fade after a few turns.

3) Potion 2. Beethro would have a free roaming magnifying glass/torch, perhaps of a more limited size than Potion 1. Any transparency effect would disappear after use.

4) Shadow/bump across the whole map. A tar maze would be little different to a crumbly wall maze. The key would be how subtle the difference between tar and tar+wall.

5) Ripple when stabbing, limited area effect. If the player is observant, he would be able to make short term decisions regarding where to go next (being careful not to block backtracking) Move, watch ripple, move. If moving faster, harmonics would make the pattern more readable.

6) Slow ripples/sloshing across the tar surface throughout gameplay. Careful study would be required to see where those ripples encountered resistance and changed the wavefront. Or perhaps ripples from bursting air bubbles, floating up from beneath the tar surface.

7) Any others?

Would any of these (or other ideas) form an interesting and acceptable alternative to the current behaviour?

agaricus5
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StuartK wrote:
Anyway, how about we consider it from a purely gameplay point of view (then if the idea is good, we could shoe in the science afterwards...)

Yeah... just "shoe" it in.

5) Ripple when stabbing, limited area effect. If the player is observant, he would be able to make short term decisions regarding where to go next (being careful not to block backtracking) Move, watch ripple, move. If moving faster, harmonics would make the pattern more readable.

6) Slow ripples/sloshing across the tar surface throughout gameplay. Careful study would be required to see where those ripples encountered resistance and changed the wavefront. Or perhaps ripples from bursting air bubbles, floating up from beneath the tar surface.

These are interesting, but I think if the ripples are implemented, they should really be sort of permanent for the duration of the move, even if Beethro is not really sticking his sword in the tar because it requires the player to be watching very closely, and if he/she wants to plan a route, then I don't think making the player rely on visual memory to do this adds anything to the game, unless, of course, it's only a small ripple radius.

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