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halyavin
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Maurog wrote:
And just as eytanz pointed out, anything that makes the rooms get more optimized is a good thing.
Even the drod-solver? ;)
02-24-2007 at 04:45 PM
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Rabscuttle
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I would be interested to know how much I snipe and get sniped. I don't mind if this information is shared with the world.
02-24-2007 at 11:29 PM
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zex20913
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Just got internet capabilities back, and want to put in a couple more pennies. I am siding with Maurog and eytanz. I don't view this as a problem (admittedly, I haven't seen data). Maurog said that somebody leaving an imperfect #1 deserves to be sniped.

I don't believe that deserved is the correct word, but if they make an error, and don't take the time (2 minutes or so, typically) to rebeat the room without a mistake, then I don't have a problem taking it away from them. I've found this approximately...3? times. 3 times, when there are really "bump into wall" or "wait error" mistakes, and gladly corrected them. Pretty much every other time I've "sniped", I have used enhanced technique to lay claim to the #1, or used general tactics to get an idea of what the best moveset should be. I don't go in to a room with a sniper mindset, and I don't look at the #1 demo immediately.

I also want to bring up, that with "fresh" #1s, it's sometimes a boxing match, or an odd type of auction. Somebody bids a decent amount on the first time through. Say I go in and bid less. I think it's pretty good, certainly not always the best, but sometimes the best bid. Somebody else (we'll call him M) comes and bids better. I am shocked, I look at his bid, and see if I can bid lower, or if I just made a mistake.

Alright, this analogy is going nowhere. I know that I've had a #1, had it beaten, downloaded the demo to see what happened, and tried to regain my #1. I don't see it as an issue, or something that needs to be prevented.

As for stale #1s, I'd prefer that somebody has to submit a fresh demo for it before downloading the #1 score, for sniping or not.

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02-25-2007 at 12:05 AM
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larrymurk
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I am very unhappy.

I am playing Smitemastery 101 on and off and I cannot watch demos. Not good at all. Please just let me view demos.
02-25-2007 at 12:40 AM
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NiroZ
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larrymurk wrote:
I am very unhappy.

I am playing Smitemastery 101 on and off and I cannot watch demos. Not good at all. Please just let me view demos.
Or more to the point, I had a number 1. Now, someone beat me by one move, and then someone beat them by one move, and now I can't see what they did!:ranting

Can you please, please, pretty please with sugar and chocolate sprinkes on top, revert the change until we decide on a better one Schik?
02-25-2007 at 12:57 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+3)  
halyavin wrote:
Even the drod-solver? ;)

we get it you made a drod solver

shut up
shut up shut up shut up

god help me I will kill you with my mind

possibly with mind bullets

that's telekinesis, kyle
02-25-2007 at 12:59 AM
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zex20913
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One week does seem too long. Far too long. Most holds can be done in a day. Certainly all but the longest (JtRH, Bavato's, etc) in a week. I'm not sure if the "snipe protection" should be there. All the snipe protection should be coming from the people submitting #1 scores. That's how I see it, and it seems we're penalizing some other people for this "enhancement".

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02-25-2007 at 02:18 AM
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RoboBob3000
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larrymurk wrote:
I am very unhappy.

I am playing Smitemastery 101 on and off and I cannot watch demos. Not good at all. Please just let me view demos.

I'm with Murk. As far as CaravelNet value goes, comparing myself to others as soon as I complete a room is far more important to me than making sure the high scores are fair in this regard. I'll go so far as to say I'm actually not enjoying Master Locks as much as I could be as a result of this.

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02-25-2007 at 02:29 AM
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Citrus
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After thinking on it for a while, I am of the point to agree with Larry and RoboBob. I would much more like to watch the best demo for rooms that I enjoyed playing, or had trouble with, then protect me and/or someone else from not getting sniped.

I also agree with Maurog that sniping is a valid strategy and shouldn't be persecuted against. But that's an entirely different discussion.

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02-25-2007 at 02:34 AM
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Jatopian
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[agreement with Larry and disapproval of change]

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02-25-2007 at 03:00 AM
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Dolan42
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I get 2 kinds of #1s. The first kind is when the #1 pops up and I'm surprised that my performance was deserving of a #1. For those I might go back and try to improve my score if I enjoyed the room and can think of some improvements. Otherwise I move on and wait for it to be beaten by someone. These are usually hoard management or serpent rooms. In this case sniping usually isn't an issue because there are so many combinations that looking at my demo probably won't help a lot with shaving moves off the score.

The second type is the rooms where I'm pretty sure I've got the optimal solution(at least till I think about it more) and I enjoyed optimizing it. These I'll play several more times searching for ways to save a move or 2. In this situation I don't want people to download my score and spotting where I zigged when I should have zagged. Often I'll come back the next morning and find another few moves. Once I'm satisfied that the solution is "optimal", any mistakes that remain are my fault and if the room is sniped I should have played it through a couple more times.

For these reasons I like the current system where demos are protected for a while before everyone can download them. One week may be too long though, 3 or 4 days would probably work just as well.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

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02-25-2007 at 03:03 AM
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RoboBob3000
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But the way I see it now, any period of time that you have to wait is a bad one. With the system currently implemented, I'm beginning to see how much I took the instant gratification of in-game demo downloading for granted. In a couple of days, I'm not going to remember to go back and take a peek at the #1 demos of the rooms I just beat. Even then, viewing them will have lost a great deal of meaning if what I just did to complete the room isn't fresh in memory.

Sure, I can't claim to be in the majority, but taking a peek at the numbers here should be fruitful. How many CaravelNet subscribers are there, and how many seem to be heavy "snipers"? And are they really impacting the rankings or diminishing the enjoyment of other players on the high score board?

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 02-25-2007 03:28 AM]
02-25-2007 at 03:27 AM
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Schik
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+3)  
Okay, you can now download any and all demos. Yay!

A lot of people think a lot of different things on this one, and nobody has really changed my opinion on anything, so I've gotta just go with what I think is best.

So... from now on, if you download a demo that is ranked higher than yours, then submit a new demo for that room, your demo will have its timestamp moved forward one week. So if you beat someone's #1 by watching it (or other demos better than yours), rather than by independently innovating (AKA snipe), then the snipee will have a chance to take #1 back by matching it without watching your demo within a week.

I haven't collected the data needed to detect this for very long, but I currently see about 30 people who have sniped #1s, for a total of several hundred sniped #1s. That does not include things like a sniper sniping then getting beaten (either legitimately or sniped), so the numbers may be marginally higher.


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02-25-2007 at 04:30 AM
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Maurog
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Well then, there are two things that I want to mention based on that change:

1. There obviously should be some kind of warning message.
2. There should be an option to withold uploading demos, and a button to allow you upload a specific demo to CaravelNet.

While 1. is pretty straightforward, 2. has a specific reason.
You see, if I (theoretically) want to complete a hold of say 100 rooms over the course of a month or so, and beat say, 10 #1's of the same person, the optimal way to defend against the special protection they are getting is obviously to upload the demos only when you finish, and all at once. And preferrably when they go on vacation, but that's beside the point. Right now, this requires constant disconnection and reconnection to CaravelNet, which is not very comfortable. An interface change to allow us more control of the uploading process will be greatly appreciated.

Note that this is not trying to find a way "around" rules, but rather a legitimate strategy well within the rules, which derives from the latest change. We didn't need any special control over the uploading process before, because it didn't matter. We need it now.

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02-25-2007 at 04:56 AM
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Schik
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It's up to Mike if he wants to add those things to the game. If it were my decision, then no, we wouldn't make changes to making sniping more profitable. I see nothing wrong with adding a warning of some sort.

No, you're not trying to get around rules, because as you astutely noticed there are no hard rules about sniping. But I see it as going against the spirit of the high scores. Remember Clefren? If not, search for his name. I see this as similar, but on a smaller scale - Clefren swore up and down than he did no wrong, but what he did was clearly against the spirit of the high scores. And now, snipers swear up and down that they do no wrong, but again, I think it's against the spirit. Even when I do it.

One possible addition I could imagine would be to let people pick whether or not they want to be involved in sniping. Then, snipers could snipe other snipers at zero penalty, but would have the current penalty when sniping non-snipers. And non-snipers would get a penalty for sniping anyone.


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02-25-2007 at 05:09 AM
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Maurog
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And who decides what the "spirit of the game" is? You? Or the players?

As I see it, there are the competitive people who are very into this whole optimizing business. They have nothing against sniping. Sure, it's unpleasant to see your scores beat, but it's all part of the game (except if you didn't have time to perfect your demo, then it just sucks). They improve your scores, you improve their scores. It's a competition after all.

Then, there is the average Joe. He just plays it for fun, and gets a #1 only occasionally. It's understandable if he gets upset when he loses that #1, but frankly, I can't imagine Joe checking his scores regularly to see if he was beat and trying to reclaim them. If I snipe him, he probably won't know it for a week anyway, or try to match my score if he does.

So I'm really not sure about this "spirit of the game" argument. Have you received many complaints?

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02-25-2007 at 05:24 AM
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Schik
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Maurog wrote:
And who decides what the "spirit of the game" is? You? Or the players?
Well, right here, Erik said, in +2 font size even, "The DROD High Scores are for people who are solving the rooms with their own brainpower." Not using the #1 score holder's brainpower, but their own.
As I see it, there are the competitive people who are very into this whole optimizing business. They have nothing against sniping. Sure, it's unpleasant to see your scores beat, but it's all part of the game (except if you didn't have time to perfect your demo, then it just sucks). They improve your scores, you improve their scores. It's a competition after all.
If everyone who's competitive has nothing against sniping (not true, but let's roll with it) then your problems with this change would be fixed by my proposal to allow people to designate themselves snipers.
Then, there is the average Joe. He just plays it for fun, and gets a #1 only occasionally. It's understandable if he gets upset when he loses that #1, but frankly, I can't imagine Joe checking his scores regularly to see if he was beat and trying to reclaim them. If I snipe him, he probably won't know it for a week anyway, or try to match my score if he does.
If that's true, then you have nothing to fear when you snipe Joe's #1s.
So I'm really not sure about this "spirit of the game" argument. Have you received many complaints?
I've received complaints, and I've seen people go "yeah, that does suck" in this thread.


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02-25-2007 at 05:37 AM
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NiroZ
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Schik wrote:
Maurog wrote:
And who decides what the "spirit of the game" is? You? Or the players?
Well, right here, Erik said, in +2 font size even, "The DROD High Scores are for people who are solving the rooms with their own brainpower." Not using the #1 score holder's brainpower, but their own.

But to snipe a demo, one has to look through the demo and spot errors. Thus knowing how and why their 'victim' did something. Yes, I'm sure that there has been times when all they did was avoid bumping into objects, but how many times did they keep their snipe @ number 1? From what I have seen, not long.

Thus, they are not using their own brainpower, nor the other persons. They are collaborating, albeit unwittingly in a biased relationship, to achieve their goal.

As for my views on this latest change, I'm in the 'meh' group. I'm not serious enough about highscores to care either way.
02-25-2007 at 05:54 AM
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Rabscuttle
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This method does give more of an advantage to the current #1 than it appears at first. They are allowed to look at the lower placed demos for ideas for improvements without penalty.

==

Question: If I snipe, take first place, wait a week and manage to keep it, am I forever penalised on getting scores for that room. If I find another improvement a few months later, do I still need to wait an extra week for my improvement to become official?

If I don't get first place even with sniping am I still penalised forever?

==

Does this only apply for demos downloaded from now, or am I going to discover in the future that I downloaded the top demo for a room two years ago.

==

It works by the way. I now have a demo from the future, where there are flying cars. It is sitting up the top of my "My Scores" tab. That could be kind of annoying if it's going to be there for a week. But I would want sniped scores at the top of my Lost #1s list. So I'm not complaining too hard.

Actually, this could be kind of fun - like a mini-challenge. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get this score within a week!


02-25-2007 at 07:13 AM
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silver
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Rabscuttle wrote:
This method does give more of an advantage to the current #1 than it appears at first. They are allowed to look at the lower placed demos for ideas for improvements without penalty.

that's what my really long post on the last page said. hrm. I should 've put it shorter, like you did :)


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02-25-2007 at 07:34 AM
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Maurog wrote:
2. There should be an option to withold uploading demos, and a button to allow you upload a specific demo to CaravelNet.
Well, there kinda is one already, but harking back to the Settings menu and unchecking "Connect to CaravelNet" is a bit tiresome - maybe Mike could add a key to disable score uploading for a single room?

But yeah, a button in the demos screen to upload a score would certainly be useful, especially when you'd have to do a full score upload otherwise.

np: Autechre - Glitch (Amber)

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02-25-2007 at 09:08 AM
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Stephen4Louise
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Schik wrote:
So... from now on, if you download a demo that is ranked higher than yours, then submit a new demo for that room, your demo will have its timestamp moved forward one week. So if you beat someone's #1 by watching it (or other demos better than yours), rather than by independently innovating (AKA snipe), then the snipee will have a chance to take #1 back by matching it without watching your demo within a week.

I haven't collected the data needed to detect this for very long, but I currently see about 30 people who have sniped #1s, for a total of several hundred sniped #1s. That does not include things like a sniper sniping then getting beaten (either legitimately or sniped), so the numbers may be marginally higher.

Schik wrote:
C: Download demo -> later uploads for that room timestamped +1 week
Pro: Players can download demos at any time, and are only "punished" for rooms they watched other demos for. Competitiveness is per-room rather than per person.
Con: Worries about this punishing people who aren't even trying to snipe a #1, or punish them indefinitely.
C2: Change the timestamp to be +1 week from their last demo download, or +1 week from the submission time of the demo beaten.
Pro: Addresses the Con in C.
Con: ??


What about the C con above? Would we not be better going with C2?

And if it is several hundred snipes from 9000+ rooms is it really that big a problem?

Steve.
02-25-2007 at 09:11 AM
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Maurog wrote:
[Sniping] may look a bit questionable to some people, but it is actually completely legal. In fact, the easy #2's is one of the changes I was extremely opposed to in last Schik's demo change discussion thread, so I don't feel any remorse at all.
Did you know that using the exploding smiley is also legal? But somehow, some people don't like it and mod those posts down.

Perhaps we should use a modding system for demos as well.

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02-25-2007 at 10:46 AM
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Maurog
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And I fully endorse your right to use any smiley you like, just like I fully endorse the right of these other people to spend their mod points as they like.

A modding system for demos would rock if it's somehow feasible. Right now, hard rooms and easy rooms and long rooms and short rooms all have the same scoring, and there are plenty of reasons for that to change. But it's getting very complicated very fast. The best I can think of is a sort of history like in Wikipedia articles, where you can see how #1 demos progressed over time from within the client and rate them.

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02-25-2007 at 11:00 AM
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Beef Row
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Schik wrote:
So... from now on, if you download a demo that is ranked higher than yours, then submit a new demo for that room, your demo will have its timestamp moved forward one week. So if you beat someone's #1 by watching it (or other demos better than yours), rather than by independently innovating (AKA snipe), then the snipee will have a chance to take #1 back by matching it without watching your demo within a week.

One clarification which no one seems to have asked yet. If you've scored a tie with someone, (for first, or third, or whatever place) and you download their demo, does it count as a higher ranking demo than yours? Or is the test purely based on the number of moves in the demo?

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02-25-2007 at 12:02 PM
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Hi Folks, Two cents worth from a constant reader.

Any and all competitive endeavours require that the participants strive for perfection for the duration of their effort. The fastest time, highest score, etc. will be held as a
" No. 1 " until someone steps forward to improve on it. These victories are never protected. If a competitor earns a victory
in spite of the small or large tactical errors that he or she will make then he or she is simply better that day, hour or minute. Enjoy it. Submitting that effort as a record of what they
have accomplished is an automatic challenge to anyone that thinks they can better it. End of story. The High Score page is not a trophy case, it's a very large target. (not to mention good, clean fun.)


02-25-2007 at 06:09 PM
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
Here's a fairly simple new idea:
An "invisible upload" button. When you upload a score for a room using this, it's timestamped by the server, but is not publicly viewable, and doesn't give you any points until you decide to make it visible. People could see your score, but not your demo. This way, you could work on getting an optimal solution without worry of being sniped. However, once you decide your solution is optimal, if someone notices it isn't, and is able to snipe your demo, its your own fault.

I think this addresses the sniping problem fairly well, as well as keeping the former ultra-competitive sniping action!
02-25-2007 at 08:00 PM
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NiroZ
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Ravon wrote:
Here's a fairly simple new idea:
An "invisible upload" button. When you upload a score for a room using this, it's timestamped by the server, but is not publicly viewable, and doesn't give you any points until you decide to make it visible. People could see your score, but not your demo. This way, you could work on getting an optimal solution without worry of being sniped. However, once you decide your solution is optimal, if someone notices it isn't, and is able to snipe your demo, its your own fault.

I think this addresses the sniping problem fairly well, as well as keeping the former ultra-competitive sniping action!
How would you exactly mark the demo as ready for highscores? One problem with this is that people might withhold their demos for long periods of time in order to suss out the competition. For example, they might have found an clever way of dealing with the goblins, but then hold back the demo to see which way to enter the room, and how to deal with the roaches.
02-25-2007 at 08:29 PM
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Beef Row
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Schik wrote:
So... from now on, if you download a demo that is ranked higher than yours, then submit a new demo for that room, your demo will have its timestamp moved forward one week.

If there are any people out there who use CaravelNet but don't regularly read the 'general' section of the forum, they are being cheated, right this very moment. Whether or not there will be an in-game warning, there needs to be some sort of prominent announcement of this change, so that people don't unknowingly cheat themselves.

Also, I still don't see any clarification on whether downloading a demo which is tied with you on moves, but beats your demo on time submitted, counts against you in this system or not.

Additionally, this system this system seems severely inequitable in rooms composed of many small parts, where those with higher place are likely to still have imperfections not present in some of the scores below them. The higher ranked player can steal the lower ranked players techniques with complete impunity. Even if this means one player took 20 extra moves on the roach horde, but saved 10 moves on the goblins, and 9 moves through a clever trick with the serpent. The player that had trouble with the horde is out of luck, while the other player, who was good at roaches, but not much else, gets a free pass to snipe.

I don't think that making sniping available only to those who already have an edge will make the competition more fair. It doesn't *eliminate* sniping, it just makes it easier for those who have a high rank in any given room.

Finally, this system penalizes people for something its easy to forget is forbidden. And lets remember that in game demo downloads are only possible for demos near the top, so if you're in lets say 20th place, you can only download penalizing demos, not 'safe' one. It also seems to depend on assuming demos are only downloaded with an intent to directly exploit them. It shows a lack of trust in the players of DROD, and especially, especially in players with lower average ranks, who will be quietly penalized for almost every demo they download.

The more I think about this system, the less I like it, for all these reasons. (It also severly muddies the waters on who thought up any given trick first, and who might be copying... ]Say a player downloads a #1 demo, doesn't copy it, but thinks of a new and unique trick, that nets them third place. Now the second place player downloads this demo, plays through and gets a new #1. His #1 is stamped 5 or 6 days earlier than the actual discoverer of this trick, who now appears to be copying off his demo. Not only was sniping involved, but the sniper wasn't penalized, comes out looking clean, and the innovator LOOKS like he was an imitator to anyone who looks at the demos involved.)

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02-26-2007 at 01:05 AM
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coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
I've an idea: What if you could make it so that after your highscore is beaten, you have a certain amount of time during which you can reclaim your number one spot, if you do it without downloading any demo which beat you? Maybe only a day or two, because a week would get abusive.

Yes, I'm aware it would change the whole dynamic of the highscores. But it might be neat.
02-26-2007 at 11:38 PM
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