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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Version 9, alternate graphics) (0)  
Assuming I can confirm that he's okay with commercial use?

I intend to include quite a bit of it for use with the editor. I'll probably only include so many colors of any one thing, though. I'm thinking eight, just in case anyone wants to do an Ultima-themed dungeon or something.

I mean, does anybody really need fifteen of these guys to make their dungeon? :)

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-03-2007 11:02 PM]
04-03-2007 at 10:58 PM
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BeefontheBone
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Version 9, alternate graphics) (0)  
Only if it was some sort of bizarre recreation of Under the Sea can I see that happening.

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04-04-2007 at 10:42 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Version 9, alternate graphics) (0)  
Damn it, Beef. Now I've got Sebastion from Disney's "Little Mermaid" singing in my head. And it's stuck. :D

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-05-2007 03:13 AM]
04-05-2007 at 02:15 AM
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golfrman
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Version 9, alternate graphics) (0)  
I like the new graphics a lot DGM!

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04-05-2007 at 07:42 PM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Version 9, alternate graphics) (0)  
Mind if I use your graphics, DGM? :D

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04-11-2007 at 01:37 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Version 9, alternate graphics) (+1)  
I assume you're refering to the version 9 graphics? I'd give permission if I could, but as I said they're not mine. You need to look up a man named David Gervais and get his permission. He lets people use them for free and claims he's never denied anyone, but he still holds the copyright and wants to know what you're doing with his work.


If you're refering to the older graphics, those mostly come from here:
http://rltiles.sourceforge.net/

Except for a few additions/modifications of my own (most notably the keys), these are public domain and only require that you put in a bit of legal text stating where you got them from.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, what do you want them for?

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-11-2007 02:46 AM]
04-11-2007 at 02:11 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (+1)  
Up until now I've been using hand-made content, but I'm about at the point where I need to make the editors or I'll slow to a crawl. So I'm putting other tasks on hold while I get those up and running.

The backbone of the system - the ability to create, save and reload projects - is in place. I've also fully implemented one of the actual editors. Specifically the stat editor, which determines what stats will be used throughout a given dungeon. While this is not enough to make a game with, it is enough to release for testing and feedback.

Which is why you'll find a link to it in the first post. Those of you who are interested, please download this and play around with it for a few minutes. Tell me what you think it needs and how you like/dislike the control scheme. The readMe file contains simple instructions.

EDIT: Oh, I should mention that the big stat panel you see in the editor is the same thing you'll see constantly in the actual game. Make of that what you will. :devil

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-11-2007 12:22 PM]
04-11-2007 at 12:13 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (+1)  
Turns out I forgot to update the legal text file for version 9 to take the David Gervais graphics into account! Not a good thing to forget. Anyway, if you tried to download version 9 in the last couple of minutes and found the link was broken, that was me correcting the problem. It should be up again now.

If I could mod myself down for this, I would. Feel free to do it for me.

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04-11-2007 at 08:46 PM
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BeefontheBone
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
I'm going to mod you up for being so nice about it. Hah!

*goes to continue work on bizarre recreation of Under the Sea*

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04-11-2007 at 09:19 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
BeefontheBone wrote:
I'm going to mod you up for being so nice about it. Hah!

Curses! Foiled again!


*goes to continue work on bizarre recreation of Under the Sea*

:unsure
Umm... Can I really trust you with an editor? :)

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04-12-2007 at 06:40 AM
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zonhin
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
In the editor, I'd suggest a "Hidden from player" or "Monster Only" toggles.

Great game by the way.

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04-16-2007 at 02:58 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
zonhin wrote:
In the editor, I'd suggest a "Hidden from player" or "Monster Only" toggles.

By "Hidden from player" I assume you mean stats whose current values (or entire existence) are concealed? Sorry, this goes against one of the fundamental principles of the game: Gameplay-affecting information may not be hidden from the player. This is a puzzle game at heart - despite the CRPG trappings - and hiding info that the player needs to solve the puzzle is not fair.

As for "Monster only," I take it you mean stats which only monsters possess? Encounters (the collective name I'm using for everything you can interact with in a dungeon other than stairs) will have their own panels along the bottom of the screen showing their data during play. The stat panel is there to show the adventurer's information.


Great game by the way.

Thanks! :)

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04-17-2007 at 05:36 AM
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zonhin
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
DGM wrote:
zonhin wrote:
In the editor, I'd suggest a "Hidden from player" or "Monster Only" toggles.

By "Hidden from player" I assume you mean stats whose current values (or entire existence) are concealed? Sorry, this goes against one of the fundamental principles of the game: Gameplay-affecting information may not be hidden from the player. This is a puzzle game at heart - despite the CRPG trappings - and hiding info that the player needs to solve the puzzle is not fair.
I can understand that.
DGM wrote:
As for "Monster only," I take it you mean stats which only monsters possess? Encounters (the collective name I'm using for everything you can interact with in a dungeon other than stairs) will have their own panels along the bottom of the screen showing their data during play. The stat panel is there to show the adventurer's information.
So things like MP damage aren't going to be stored in the attribute panel? Good idea.
DGM wrote:
Great game by the way.

Thanks! :)
You're welcome. :)

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04-17-2007 at 06:06 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
It's reached the point where I need to nail down a bunch of non-gameplay issues. Given the results of the two polls I conducted recently (here and here), I've decided that the initial release will have a minimal feature set. Periodically I will offer upgrades which add new game elements (like item powers) to the engine. This will both give a gentler, personalized learning curve (you can add new features whenever you feel you're ready for them) and allow me to keep the game fresh for years to come.

What concerns me now is: what should I offer for free and what should I hold back as incentive to buy? Should I give the basic game away for free and charge a small amount per upgrade? Should I go with my earlier idea of limiting the player to a certain number of levels per dungeon until he buys, then release the upgrades for free? Some third option?

Suggestions welcome, arguements and hard sales data to back your suggestions up even more so. :)

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04-17-2007 at 01:50 PM
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DGM wrote:
What should I offer for free and what should I hold back as incentive to buy? Should I give the basic game away for free and charge a small amount per upgrade? Should I go with my earlier idea of limiting the player to a certain number of levels per dungeon until he buys, then release the upgrades for free? Some third option?
I have no hard data to offer, but the first option you list does seem problematic.
First, will updates depend on all previous updates, or can users pick and choose? As a user I'd certainly expect the latter, but how much harder is that for you to support (genuine, non-coder's question)?
Second, think of international bank charges. It's annoying enough to push one larger amount through the system; semi-regular small amounts sound like one expensive hell.
Third, unless it turns out that the overwhelming majority of your players buy everything you release, your architects will hesitate to use "rarer" elements in their levels.

Speaking of architects, here's a third option I've seen used in the IF world: Give the game engine away, including all upgrades, but sell (the full version of) the editor. No idea how well that would work for this kind of game though.
04-17-2007 at 02:54 PM
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DGM
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Znirk wrote:
First, will updates depend on all previous updates, or can users pick and choose?
It would be a single, linear upgrade path. Having upgrade 3 would mean also having everything in upgrades 1 and 2.


As a user I'd certainly expect the latter,
Why? The former works just fine for DROD.


but how much harder is that for you to support (genuine, non-coder's question)?
After the first upgrade it would mean additional work, and it would rapidly snowball with upgrades after the second. Also, such a thing would probably make things worse for the players as well, since the dungeons made would be spread out among the various possible upgrade paths. Each person would have access to a smaller pool of dungeons to play (unless he had purchased everything), and this also would get worse with each new upgrade.


Second, think of international bank charges. It's annoying enough to push one larger amount through the system; semi-regular small amounts sound like one expensive hell.

I admit I don't know how this works.


Third, unless it turns out that the overwhelming majority of your players buy everything you release, your architects will hesitate to use "rarer" elements in their levels.

That's not a problem with a single upgrade path. Nobody has access to the fuses and bombs from JtRH without also having access to Wraithwings.

Speaking of architects, here's a third option I've seen used in the IF world: Give the game engine away, including all upgrades, but sell (the full version of) the editor. No idea how well that would work for this kind of game though.

Hmm... For that to be wise financially, a lot of people would have to want to make levels badly enough to pay for the privilege. But I suspect that the number of people that interested in level design will be far less than the number of people who just want to play.

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04-17-2007 at 03:22 PM
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Znirk
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (+1)  
DGM wrote:
Znirk wrote:
First, will updates depend on all previous updates, or can users pick and choose?
It would be a single, linear upgrade path. Having upgrade 3 would mean also having everything in upgrades 1 and 2.
As a user I'd certainly expect the latter,
Why? The former works just fine for DROD.
It's only a problem under the "Sell the upgrades" scheme. Assume I'm interested in the contents of upgrade 3 but not 1 and 2. If upgrades are free, I can install the lot and simply not use 1 and 2; but I don't want to have to buy 1 and 2 when all I want is 3.

The problem doesn't arise with DROD: Up until now, new elements have appeared only in major revisions marketed as whole new products; also, there are feature-complete free releases: AE, and the complete 2.0 and 3.0 engines distributed with demos for JtRH and TCB. As far as I understand, the new "Add elements in patches for SMS" plan will work the same: upgrades to the engine are free, but users can buy content that shows off the new features.
04-17-2007 at 05:32 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (+1)  
Here's another idea:

There's an indie game called "Mount and Blade" that is being sold despite still being in development. The idea is that you can buy the full game at any point and recieve any future improvements for free, but the price starts low and goes up as the game gets further along and more features and polish are added. In essence, you're rewarded for being an early adopter.

Maybe something like that could work here. The basic game could start at $20 and go up $2 with each upgrade released, but once you buy all future upgrades are free for you.

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04-18-2007 at 01:04 AM
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I have a question, since you can name the stats yourself, how eaxactly will the game know what stats are what? Throught the pictures?

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04-29-2007 at 12:35 AM
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DGM
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golfrman wrote:
I have a question, since you can name the stats yourself, how eaxactly will the game know what stats are what? Throught the pictures?

No, the icon used for a stat can be changed as well. Internally the stats are simply numbered, - as in stat1, stat2, etc. - according to the position they occupy in the stat panel. The name is just to help the player understand what the stat is used for, and the icon is to give a shorthand way of refering to the stat in other places (as using the name everywhere a stat is refered to would take up an impractical amount of screen space).

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04-29-2007 at 05:51 AM
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DGM wrote:
golfrman wrote:
I have a question, since you can name the stats yourself, how eaxactly will the game know what stats are what? Throught the pictures?

No, the icon used for a stat can be changed as well. Internally the stats are simply numbered, - as in stat1, stat2, etc. - according to the position they occupy in the stat panel. The name is just to help the player understand what the stat is used for, and the icon is to give a shorthand way of refering to the stat in other places (as using the name everywhere a stat is refered to would take up an impractical amount of screen space).
I think he means how a stat behaves. Like attack and defense.

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04-30-2007 at 04:02 AM
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DGM
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zonhin wrote:
I think he means how a stat behaves. Like attack and defense.

Oh, sorry.

As I said, I've decided to change some things since I posted my design notes. As a result of some of the changes there won't be a need for hard-coded stats any more. I guess it's time for another update.

First, let me get some bad news out of the way. I had ideas about how I would do the editor, and had tried to set things up in advance so that switching over from hand-crafted content would be easy. However, when I got to the point of writing the editor I found that I had been naive; not far in I realized some things I was doing were impractical. I had to change how I was doing some things, which meant that the work I had done previously to make switching over to the editor was actually going to work against me. I essentially had to start over. Again. And I've been wrestling with bugs - including a very bizarre one that keeps tinting my level maps blue - ever since.

Earlier today I decided that I'm tired of doing this the hard way, and I don't care to write the game a fourth bloody time when I switch to Torque Game Builder. So I'm scrapping the Game Maker version and getting some help in the money department so that I can switch over to Torque Game Builder later this week.

This means I'll have to start the code from scratch - again - and there'll be a further delay as I teach myself TGB. But on the plus side, I won't be under the constraints involved in trying to write the game in GM in such a way that converting it to TGB later is possible. I can just take advantage of whatever TGB offers from the start. Plus, it'll save time later since I won't have to port. And the game gets better each time as I incorporate refinements that occur to me as I go.

I regret saying a couple of weeks ago that I should have something playable right about now. Even though I have the excuse of the learning curve involved here, it still feels like I yanked everybody's chain for nothing. This went much better the first time around when I actually had something playable as soon as I showed up. So from now on my policy will be to just keep my mouth shut until I have an alpha. I'll answer other questions, but I won't even speculate on dates. It's done when it's done.




And with that unpleasantness out of the way, here's some of the changes to the design that relate to golfrman's question:

1) You can now see the whole dungeon as soon as you start the game. Now when I say that no gameplay-related information is hidden from the player, I literally mean none.

2) An encounter can just check to see if a stat is at or above a certain level instead of reducing it. I mentioned this before, but it's relevant to golfrman's question so I'm reminding you of it now.

3) The "combat" system is being expanded into a general "conflict" system. The same basic mechanism is used: each side in a conflict will have an offense, defense and reserve stat, and each round you will subtract your offense minus the other's defense from your opponent's reserve until he runs out.

What's new is that the system will no longer be hard-coded to use specific stats. Instead, each encounter can specify which of the player's stats will be used. So the same mechanism used for combat can now be applied to other things (like haggling, to give just one example).

To accomodate this, only one stat can be altered per conflict now (no draining both life and mana) and both sides act simultaneously each round (no more first strike).

4) Instead of having a specific interaction for fighting and another for trading, interactions will be more generalized. Each interaction can both involve a conflict and make fixed changes to stats and items.



And now for golfrman's question. To recap: there were going to be 14 hard-coded stats - Life, Mana, Offense, Defense, Resistance and Visions were the numerical ones, and I was going to have 8 boolean stats as well (four faction stats and four impervious stats).

Visions is no longer needed because you can automatically see everything. Life, Mana, Offense, Defense and Resistance can all go because each encounter can specify which stats to use for offense, defense and reserve.

As for the faction and imperviousness traits, they will simply use stats now. You can devote a stat to tracking your reputation with a given faction, for example, and have it checked when you try to trade with them or lower it when you kill one of them. This has three advantages: you can now have as many faction/imperviousness traits as you care to assign stats for instead of being limited to four each, you no longer have to keep track of boolean values as well as numerical values, and you can have degrees of trust instead of simple on/off relationships.




As you can see these changes aren't really adding any new mechanisms to the game, but rather are generalizing the existing ones as much as possible.

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-30-2007 06:31 AM]
04-30-2007 at 05:52 AM
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Veeeeerry good ideas here. Congrats!

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04-30-2007 at 06:30 AM
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DGM
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zonhin wrote:
Veeeeerry good ideas here. Congrats!

Thanks. That's the one really good thing about taking so long and redoing the code multiple times - I've had a lot of oppourtunity to refine the game mechanics.

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04-30-2007 at 06:34 AM
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DGM wrote:
To accomodate this, only one stat can be altered per conflict now (no draining both life and mana) and both sides act simultaneously each round (no more first strike).

Why not? can't you just have multiple combats going on at the same time? If you can't, for whatever reason, maybe you could impliment it somehow?

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04-30-2007 at 06:55 AM
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DGM wrote:
And with that unpleasantness out of the way, here's some of the changes to the design that relate to golfrman's question:

1) You can now see the whole dungeon as soon as you start the game. Now when I say that no gameplay-related information is hidden from the player, I literally mean none.
So in other words, if I wanted to I could check out the last level before I even started the game? I can't say I like that, as the exploration added to the fun of the game. Otherwise (to me anyway) it just becomes a big long equation of stats which you have to add up.
04-30-2007 at 07:25 AM
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zonhin
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NiroZ wrote:
DGM wrote:
And with that unpleasantness out of the way, here's some of the changes to the design that relate to golfrman's question:

1) You can now see the whole dungeon as soon as you start the game. Now when I say that no gameplay-related information is hidden from the player, I literally mean none.
So in other words, if I wanted to I could check out the last level before I even started the game? I can't say I like that, as the exploration added to the fun of the game. Otherwise (to me anyway) it just becomes a big long equation of stats which you have to add up.
I agree.

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04-30-2007 at 07:51 AM
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DGM
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zonhin wrote:
Why not? can't you just have multiple combats going on at the same time? If you can't, for whatever reason, maybe you could impliment it somehow?

:huh
Nothing moves or reacts independantly except for the player. How would you get into multiple fights at once? And more importantly, how would that improve the game?

EDIT: Actually, scratch that. I've thought of a way it could be done. But it would be a feature to add in a future upgrade, not something that would be in the initial release.

Thank you for the idea.

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-30-2007 08:47 AM]
04-30-2007 at 08:18 AM
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DGM
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NiroZ wrote:
So in other words, if I wanted to I could check out the last level before I even started the game? I can't say I like that, as the exploration added to the fun of the game. Otherwise (to me anyway) it just becomes a big long equation of stats which you have to add up.

I suppose I could easily put in an exploration mode, which limited you to seeing only the levels you've already reached.

But I don't think it's a good idea to remove the "see everything" ability for those who want it. Remember that this is a puzzle game, not an exploration game. The player must be given all the information needed to solve the puzzle up front or it isn't fair. And this is not like DROD, where each room is a self-contained puzzle because Beethro gets a clean slate every time he enters it. In The Dungeon, only the dungeon as a whole is a self-contained puzzle.

That said, you might get the kind of game you're asking for. I've taken to heart Mike's earlier advice about having sequels explore different mechanics instead of adding to that of the prequels. I've thought several times that I would like to do an exploration-based version of The Dungeon (in the spirit of Metroid or Legend of Zelda), and in fact it might be my very next project after this one.

But I think it's wiser to have two seperate games each devoted to a different theme than it is to try and serve two masters at once. A game can easily end up being bad because it tries to be everything to everyone and ends up doing nothing well.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 04-30-2007 08:59 AM]
04-30-2007 at 08:32 AM
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NiroZ
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icon Re: The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing) (0)  
DGM wrote:
NiroZ wrote:
So in other words, if I wanted to I could check out the last level before I even started the game? I can't say I like that, as the exploration added to the fun of the game. Otherwise (to me anyway) it just becomes a big long equation of stats which you have to add up.

I suppose I could easily put in an exploration mode, which limited you to seeing only the levels you've already reached.

But I don't think it's a good idea to remove the "see everything" ability for those who want it. Remember that this is a puzzle game, not an exploration game. The player must be given all the information needed to solve the puzzle up front or it isn't fair. And this is not like DROD, where each room is a self-contained puzzle because Beethro gets a clean slate every time he enters it. In The Dungeon, only the dungeon as a whole is a self-contained puzzle.
Although I'm an advocate against a lot of the hidden information in DROD, two things I've never complained about are secret rooms and seeing all the room in the level. Even though some holds have rooms (and even levels) that need to be solved as a whole, rather than on a room by room basis.
04-30-2007 at 01:41 PM
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