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Would you agree to holds being removed from the hold board?
Yes, bad holds should be removed even if it removed highscores
Maybe, but not as a general policy
No, it's unfair to those who already have highscores
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eytanz
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icon Problem holds (+2)  
Ok, so recent events regarding Roaches Revenge opened up the question of what to do when people upload problematic holds - i.e. unsolvable holds which are such not because of a patch or version incompatibility or something else which the author had no control over, but because they were simply not tested. Or even just crappy holds which might be solvable but are unpleasent to play through.

The problem is as follows: A hold is released. People start playing it. People play 44% of the hold, decide "this hold has low production values", then reach an unsolvable room. What happens then?

The hold can be removed, but that means that all the highscores already achieved are lost. This is maybe ok if the problem is reached after very few rooms, but what if you have to play through 20 difficult rooms to reach the point where the hold breaks? 100?

The current hold update system works well for holds with one small problem, and it works well *if the hold author understands how to use it well*. But the problem is that the kind of person who releases an untested hold in the first place is also the kind of person who will release untested updates, or will fail to resist the urge to change *other* stuff thus creating new problems.

I suggest the following:

- Keep the current hold update system in place to allow people to fix minor problems.
- But do the following: After uploading their first hold, a forum member is blocked from either updating their hold or uploading more holds. This block will be removed as soon as admins, based on the opinions of the forum members, will be satisfied that it's a good quality hold. This will happen very fast for holds that were properly beta tested, since the testers can chime in right away, and a bit slower for holds that were not tested but are still worthy, and never for holds that are just bad. Once the ban is removed, it's removed for good.
- If the hold is very problematic, it will be removed from the holds board and everyone will politely agree to not complain about losing their scores. (Ok, this one is wishful thinking but I included a poll above to see how realistic it might be).

Comments?

Edit: And note that this is not redundant with hold ratings, since those affect what players think about existing holds, while this current suggestion is there to ensure that authors who don't understand testing do not get to propegate problems.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-07-2006 02:00 PM]
09-07-2006 at 01:58 PM
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silver
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icon Re: Problem holds (0)  
I was thinking about this myself these last few hours.

I thought something like: unless the administrators (via a mechanism such as you have described above) have cleared a hold (or an author, perhaps) for posting on the holds forum, a hold posted to "holds" is routed to architecture as a beta hold. because clearly the warning signs and 30 second wait to say "I agree" aren't quite enough for some people.




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09-07-2006 at 02:10 PM
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michthro
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In the case of Roaches Revenge, it should have been removed long ago, when there weren't many high scores yet. It's too late now. I only played the damn thing because I was looking to boost my #1s to the next round number. And then Syntax dragged me into a duel over it...

Maybe RR will one day be fixed, but removing it after all this time is not a solution. The thing to do is to prevent this from happening again. eytanz's suggestions would go a long way.
09-07-2006 at 02:52 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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silver wrote:
I was thinking about this myself these last few hours.

I thought something like: unless the administrators (via a mechanism such as you have described above) have cleared a hold (or an author, perhaps) for posting on the holds forum, a hold posted to "holds" is routed to architecture as a beta hold. because clearly the warning signs and 30 second wait to say "I agree" aren't quite enough for some people.



Since administrators don't have time to test every hold that is released how about a system where anyone can sign a hold as tested...

When a hold is initially uploaded it doesn't show on the board, but in the architects profile. It is then up to the architect to ask someone to view his profile and click the hold to verify that it has been tested. On the holds board in hold details you will be able to see who verified the hold.

Of course this is open to abuse by registering accounts etc. but it will be easy to spot people who break the rules and suspend accounts.

For holds that have been tested on the architecture board the architect will only have to put an update there asking for someone to verify it.

Thoughts?

09-07-2006 at 03:15 PM
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silver
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icon Re: Problem holds (0)  
when I said "via a mechanism ..." I was referring to eytanz' suggestion that "...admins, based on the opinions of the forum members, will be satisfied that it's a good quality hold. This will happen very fast for holds that were properly beta tested, since the testers can chime in right away, and a bit slower for holds that were not tested but are still worthy, and never for holds that are just bad."

in other words, I wasn't suggesting admins test every hold, but that to get from architecture (or private beta) to holds, you have to have sign off not just from yourself, but from an administrator (who is probably just acknowledging a signoff by trusted members of the community). your mechanism, though, seems like it would also work towards this end :)


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[Last edited by silver at 09-07-2006 03:40 PM]
09-07-2006 at 03:21 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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Point taken. My idea puts everything on the architect though. We don't want someone coming along and hassling admins because they haven't been signed off yet. If architects are relying on normal forum members to allow them to upload your hold, there is more incentive to get a hold out for testing by as many people as possible, either on the public board or privately.

Of course, my mechanism could be made more strict (and perhaps better) by forcing two people to sign it before it can be uploaded.


09-07-2006 at 03:38 PM
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silver
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since it was on the thread about the hold which spurred this discussion, but I don't want to lose the thought, I'm going to repost michthro's suggestion also that to get on the holds board, the author has to include a solution demo for every room.

his full comments were:
-Make the ability to upload holds part of the CaravelNet deal. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of allowing only subscribers to mess with what other subscribers pay for.
-Require that authors provide demos with their holds.
-Without going into it, they could appoint someone to moderate the Holds board. Someone whose job it is to flag buggy holds. Buggy as in unconquerable holds/impossible rooms/getting stuck problems, nothing more. They wouldn't have to solve every hold, they'd only have to verify bug reports - whenever a new hold appears in Architecture, there's no shortage of testers.
In other words, someone who does less than what wallu and silver have been doing anyway. Except that half the time they're doing it in Holds instead of Architecture.


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[Last edited by silver at 09-07-2006 03:44 PM]
09-07-2006 at 03:42 PM
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eytanz
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silver wrote:
since it was on the thread about the hold which spurred this discussion, but I don't want to lose the thought, I'm going to repost michthro's suggestion also that to get on the holds board, the author has to include a solution demo for every room.

his full comments were:
-Make the ability to upload holds part of the CaravelNet deal. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of allowing only subscribers to mess with what other subscribers pay for.

How would that help? Data in point: Tokyokid has Caravelnet.

-Require that authors provide demos with their holds.

Yeah, that would work.

-Without going into it, they could appoint someone to moderate the Holds board. Someone whose job it is to flag buggy holds. Buggy as in unconquerable holds/impossible rooms/getting stuck problems, nothing more. They wouldn't have to solve every hold, they'd only have to verify bug reports - whenever a new hold appears in Architecture, there's no shortage of testers.
In other words, someone who does less than what wallu and silver have been doing anyway. Except that half the time they're doing it in Holds instead of Architecture.

Yeah, this would be helpful, but it's not really practical. Volunteers have spotty records and this requires someone always on the job. A lot of the problems we have now are results of the fact that this is a volunteer-run organization (e.g. Mac ports). Appointing an editor will help in the short-term, but it's really only practical in *addition* to some other solution, not as an independent solution.

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09-07-2006 at 03:53 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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The whole idea of including demos just doesn't work for me for some reason. What about holds like Figure or Ground where you have to go through rooms multiple times. Rooms with multiple entrances? Will trivial rooms require demos? How about a room with a complicated trap door puzzle but no monsters, will a 1 move demo mark the room as ok?

How about the architect how decides that he has a full set of demos so his hold "must" be ok? There are lots of rooms that can be completed but still have problems.
09-07-2006 at 04:11 PM
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Tahnan
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So it seems to me that there are two independent problems here. First: someone can upload a broken hold; second: someone can break a hold post-upload.

I feel as if there's not a good solution to the first problem; some of the ones eytanz suggests above are decent, I suppose, but in truth I feel that community pressure goes a long way.

(On further reflection, the "ban on further Holds uploads" may be a good idea--it'd certainly prevent a single new architect from suddenly flooding the Holds board with low-quality holds. To name names: Tokyokid's first three hold uploads came in two days in early May, one of which was the now-infamous and grammtically-incorrectly-titled Roaches Revenge, the other two of which have ratings of 5.3 and 3.0, along with much discussion of what's wrong with them.)

---

Now, for the second, however, how does the following sound?

When a hold is updated, the updated version isn't added immediately. First, the spider verifies demos for the updated version. If all existing demos are valid (including there being no existing victory demos for rooms now marked uninteresting), the update goes through.

If, however, the spider finds that an update to the hold invalidates a demo, the hold update has to be manually verified by a Holds Board Moderator. There are certainly legitimate reasons this could happen--the architect decides to mark a trivial room as uninteresting, the architect has to change a conquerable room in order to make it possible to return from the next room, etc. But in the case of accidental or malicious room changing, the HBM could say, "Whoa, before I let this go through, let me PM the architect and check to make sure this was deliberate and necessary."

I understand eytanz's very legitimate concern that "Volunteers have spotty records and this requires someone always on the job", though what I'm suggesting requires considerably less effort, I think, than someone checking every hold that gets posted. Perhaps someone (Schick? I lose track of who does what around here; I am a player of very little brain) can give an idea of how frequently an update is uploaded to the Holds board.

So, just throwing that out there.
09-07-2006 at 04:15 PM
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silver wrote:
since it was on the thread about the hold which spurred this discussion, but I don't want to lose the thought, I'm going to repost michthro's suggestion also that to get on the holds board, the author has to include a solution demo for every room.

his full comments were:


Well, to address michthro's points more directly:

-Make the ability to upload holds part of the CaravelNet deal. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of allowing only subscribers to mess with what other subscribers pay for.

I don't agree with the proposal of limiting hold upload to CaravelNet subscribers. It's based on a faulty premise, first of all: 'allowing only subscribers to mess with what other subscribers pay for'. CNet subscription allows in-game download of holds, but otherwise there is no limit on access to holds except for SMS holds, which already have a higher standard applied to them by Erik and Matt. And it doesn't actually address the problem -- nothing stopping a CNet member from posting a bad hold.

-Require that authors provide demos with their holds.

Presumably a designer should be able to play through their entire hold. Possible difficulties I see with this: People thus far don't like to have demos posted to rooms without them being explicitly requested. I think it's a willpower thing (it is for me). So these demos would go...where?

It also would make some interesting issues for multiple-entry rooms, although one might counter with the argument that if you can design a multiple-entry room you probably have enough clue to make sure it's playable in all the different directions. Or at least all the intended directions.

-Without going into it, they could appoint someone to moderate the Holds board. Someone whose job it is to flag buggy holds. Buggy as in unconquerable holds/impossible rooms/getting stuck problems, nothing more. They wouldn't have to solve every hold, they'd only have to verify bug reports - whenever a new hold appears in Architecture, there's no shortage of testers.
In other words, someone who does less than what wallu and silver have been doing anyway. Except that half the time they're doing it in Holds instead of Architecture.

This seems like a fine idea...all you need is someone willing to take the job. Volunteers? (I'm sure there would be plenty.)

I guess that what michthro's suggestions don't really address is some of what we're seeing with the hold that sparked this discussion. The problem is only partly that architects are designing and posting poorly-tested holds. The other part of the problem is that bugs are being reported and 'fixes' are being uploaded willy-nilly. We can't necessarily expect all architects to follow the sort of discipline one expects from releases of software patches, but it would be nice if uploads of fixes to existing holds were managed in such a way as to prevent

1) total replacement of existing holds (this happened recently with Entrapment)
2) changes to a hold that, well, make things worse

A moderator on the Holds board might be able to prevent some of these things from happening. It might also be a lot of work.

So I guess I'm ambivalent. None of this even addresses the concept of whether Mike and Erik would want there to be someone moderating part of their forum. I imagine it's extra work for someone in any case, since one would have to make sure that the moderator didn't become mad with power or some such.

Josh



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09-07-2006 at 04:17 PM
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Jason
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What about keeping the scores but deleting the hold? The could be a section in the high scores page "Scores on Deleted Holds"

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09-07-2006 at 04:19 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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jbluestein wrote:
So I guess I'm ambivalent. None of this even addresses the concept of whether Mike and Erik would want there to be someone moderating part of their forum. I imagine it's extra work for someone in any case, since one would have to make sure that the moderator didn't become mad with power or some such.

Which is one reason why my suggestion above may be a good fit. Allow the community to look after itself, it already does a good job. There will always be one hold that will slip through, but hopefully not as often.
09-07-2006 at 04:21 PM
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silver
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Jason wrote:
What about keeping the scores but deleting the hold? The could be a section in the high scores page "Scores on Deleted Holds"

Well, either you keep the score on the "high scores" page and thus some people get a "leg up" for being around during the time a hold was active -- but that's just evilly unfair to new people; or you move the scores to limbo and then no one cares about them and then the people who got the scores are still P.O.d that their scores were limbo'd.

about uploading demos:
(1) in my imagination, the author demos wouldn't be downloadable by anyone, just spider confirmed (and then potentially trashed once the spider allows the hold upload to proceed)
(2) ideally, the demo would be a "whole hold" demo from start to finish, not a collection of individual room demos. though, of course, with a hold like mine or Tunnel Vision, that might not mean so much, either (plus I think continuous demos stop when you hit stairs, so it would technically have to be a pile of "level demos" which start from the entrance and proceed to exiting the level. which still has "bugs"...)

however, even it was "just" a collection of room demos, just the fact that the author has to include them is already a powerful incentive to make sure rooms are completable from at least one entrance. and it's not the Jacob Grinfelds of the world we're worried about, afterall. :)


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09-07-2006 at 04:26 PM
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jbluestein
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Stephen4Louise wrote:
jbluestein wrote:
So I guess I'm ambivalent. None of this even addresses the concept of whether Mike and Erik would want there to be someone moderating part of their forum. I imagine it's extra work for someone in any case, since one would have to make sure that the moderator didn't become mad with power or some such.

Which is one reason why my suggestion above may be a good fit. Allow the community to look after itself, it already does a good job. There will always be one hold that will slip through, but hopefully not as often.

I think your idea has merit, although then the question could arise as to who is qualified to verify a hold. Should the verifier have to have demos for all required rooms, or be shown as having conquered the hold, or something like that?

Not beating down the idea, though -- it's elegant.

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09-07-2006 at 04:28 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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jbluestein wrote:
I think your idea has merit, although then the question could arise as to who is qualified to verify a hold. Should the verifier have to have demos for all required rooms, or be shown as having conquered the hold, or something like that?

Not beating down the idea, though -- it's elegant.

Idealy two people should have to mark a hold as tested. And they could be any registered member of the forum. It's not a perfect solution, but if people approve holds which aren't propery tested you will see their names on the hold page. I know I wouldn't want to be associated with a bad hold.

It is open to abuse, but without going overboard and having a testing panel, what system isn't.

At the end of the day, if someone is openly abusing the system, then admins should become involved.
09-07-2006 at 04:36 PM
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silver
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agreed. so far our problem isn't so much abuse as ... carelessness? ...

though, to be fair to the specific case (which doesn't invalidate any of the above in terms of generalities): tokyokid does seem to try to please. at least after getting the Big Beat Down for his first three holds. He's just... um... sloppy? Perhaps "too hasty" is what I'm looking for. He'd certainly be doing a lot better if he tried to play his own rooms through.

abuse is its own problem with more harsh and immediate solutions.



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09-07-2006 at 04:42 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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Sometimes a new member comes along with a hold that they made and are in a big rush to get it out there. Maybe they don't get the whole testing thing. Or appreciate how people will see them when they put their hold on the board.

If that new member has to ask someone (admin or member) to approve their hold first they can be pointed in the right direction.

One thing we have to be carefull of is stopping those new members coming along with their bad holds. That same member could be the next larrymurk in a years time!
09-07-2006 at 04:52 PM
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Ezlo
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I just want to say that I don't want holds to be removed, but it has nothing to do with highscores at all, I don't care at all for them, my reason is that it seems disrespectfull to the person who made it, usually they're new, and they don't know what's going on.

Also, I just want to put a word in for Tokyokid, his hold-making-skills are improving rapidly. His next hold which is currently in beta, will be much better than the ones you've seen so far.
09-07-2006 at 05:58 PM
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eytanz
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Ezlo wrote:
I just want to say that I don't want holds to be removed, but it has nothing to do with highscores at all, I don't care at all for them, my reason is that it seems disrespectfull to the person who made it, usually they're new, and they don't know what's going on.

Which is why they shouldn't be posting holds. The hold forum is clear labelled, more than once, including in the hold submission system, as something to do *only* when you have fully checked your hold for solvability. For a new person to post a hold without proper testing is disrespectful for the rest of the community, and they deserve to get it taken off. Note that that's not banning, and they could repost the hold later once they fix things, but they should *earn* respect, not get it for blantently flouting the rules of the board.

Also, I just want to put a word in for Tokyokid, his hold-making-skills are improving rapidly. His next hold which is currently in beta, will be much better than the ones you've seen so far.

Tokyokid is a good example of someone with good intentions who just keeps doing things wrong. The latest fiasco with Roach's Revenge could easily have been prevented if he wasn't rushing into things. Now, he's learning his lessons, but he's learning them one at a time.

If it was just one person, than fine, but basically it's not fair for the rest of us to have to sit through a sequence of Tokyokids. I'm not worried about vandals which can be contained and the damage they do can be repaired - I'm worried about the people with good intentions who are jumping ahead of their capabilities. If the hold submission procedure was designed to encourage people to first build the necessary skills and only then post, that would be for everyone's benefits.

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09-07-2006 at 06:08 PM
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Tim
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Perhaps, from a historical perspective, and view from some users, there's this thread called Buggy Holds on the Holds Board

I must say, at the moment, my opinion is not really important.

First, I'm not Caravel, and it's up to them to decide if they want to let the Holds board become polluted with bad holds so that newcomers cannot find good ones any more. In the past they decided to let those holds stay. And I think I said that players can decide to play those holds if they want, based on the overall score. If you play a hold with a low score, that's up to you.

I think we also discussed the idea of postponing demo scores counting for for your overall score for the first month of a hold, until we all agree that this is not a buggy hold. Or until someone has given a score for the hold. Nowadays people just give a score to be able to download from CaravelNet immediately...

-- Tim

PS. If you want an automatic solution, why not use the current hold karma system? If it's +3 or higher, your score counts for your overall score.

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09-07-2006 at 08:54 PM
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Banjooie
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Look, why don't we have a flag. Like. A roach with an X through it, and you click that and there'll be a listing on the hold page.

'4 people claim Bad Evil Restaurant to be unsolvable. Play at your own risk.'

'54,234,164 people claim Beethro's Teacher to be unsolvable. Play at your own risk.' -- I am aware this is possible, but!
09-07-2006 at 09:29 PM
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Tim
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Oh, why not two flags? An American and a Russian one? (What they do is left as an exercise for the reader.)

'Banjooie claims this thread to be interesting. Read at your own risk.'

-- Tim :) (sorry, can't resist)
09-07-2006 at 09:38 PM
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Jatopian
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Some holds are meant to be bad (Bad Evil Restaurant), so it shouldn't be automatic in any way. If the hold author is gone and it's thoroughly bad, good riddance to it... but it should still be on a case-by-case basis. That's for past holds.
In the future, I think eytanz's system is fine, but I think that only their first hold should have to be checked. Oh, and if the "yet to be checked" queue gets too long, we might want to switch to letting the mods take away Holds board privileges insted of letting them grant them in the first place.
Tim wrote:
I'm not Caravel, and it's up to them to decide if they want to let the Holds board become polluted with bad holds so that newcomers cannot find good ones any more.
"Sort by rating, descending" - That's how I found all the good old holds, when I was a newbie.

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09-08-2006 at 12:59 AM
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Stephen4Louise
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Jatopian wrote:
In the future, I think eytanz's system is fine, but I think that only their first hold should have to be checked. Oh, and if the "yet to be checked" queue gets too long, we might want to switch to letting the mods take away Holds board privileges insted of letting them grant them in the first place.

There are a couple of things I see wrong with this. I have released one hold which got a good reception and great ratings, but that is no guarantee that anything I release in future will be anywhere near the same standard. What if I take the attitude that my first hold was good enough, so my next one should be ok without any testing.

The idea of a waiting list to get your hold approved puts me off this idea straight away. Releasing my first hold was exciting, I enjoyed watching the first scores coming in, checking to see how many people had played it. It would be a big let down for new architects to have to wait a day or two or longer for a random admin to mark thier hold OK. We should be trying to encourage people to make good holds, not puting barriers in the way. this is where I think my idea is a better solution, if you are relying on testers to authorise your hold, then it makes sense for an architect to have as many testers as possible, which can only be a good thing. If people don't like the idea of just anyone authorising holds, how about basing it on forum levels? Only delvers/smiters can authorise holds, although I don't like this approach personally. I think it should be kept as open as possible.

09-08-2006 at 09:22 AM
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Oneiromancer
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A couple of possibilities:

1. Any hold can be uploaded, and scores are uploaded when playing them, but overall scores are not affected until it has been verified by 3 people, and then an admin/moderator checks that those 3 people are trustworthy (i.e. not just the same person making 4 screen names). This could be a real pain if a hold is updated several times, although hopefully those updates all happen at the beginning before the verification is complete. If the hold spent a lot of time on Architecture or in the Beta boards, this could go a lot faster assuming that people are sure that the hold hasn't changed. The scores would be kept in a separate section so that people could compete by room, but it wouldn't affect the total score until the hold was verified. If an update is made after verification, the hold is moved back to the other section and the overall score is not adjusted until it has been verified again, and then any pending changes are applied. This last part might be too complicated to be worth it.

2. Let holds be uploaded, but don't let scores be uploaded at all until the verification occurs. This means that people will have to manually upload their scores when the verification occurs. It also means that updates have to be verified individually, and it could be really confusing what happens to the scores and I am already late for work. But I needed a second option and I wanted to make clear that we need to have holds be available to non-CaravelNet users to play even if the high scores aren't working yet for the CaravelNet subscribers.

Game on,

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09-08-2006 at 01:16 PM
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NiroZ
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Ok, heres what i think should happen to a hold.(sorry if i am in some way repeating what someone else said, its my form of appreication)

when a hold is uploaded, you can play it, and you upload hiscores, but you cannot see anyone elses(nor their demos) and those hiscores are not added to your hiscore count. this is in affect for 30 days.

After the 30 days are up(which can be extended in the case someone somehow creates a 600 room hold) the spider checks if the hold has been finished.
If not, pm's the owner and boots the hold to the architech board. Then it checks to see if 5 or more people marked this hold as good, and how many people marked it as bad. if there are 5 more good marks than bad marks, this hold is then realsed to the hiscores.
If not, its booted to the arctecuture board.

And for hold updates, if a hold is updated, the spider checks it, and if no hiscores are affected, it updates it. If there are some hiscores affected, it notifies the top 10 people in each room which have hiscores(if only some of the scores are affected, it just notifies them out of the top 10). The spider tells them that the author wants to implement an update to the hold which affects their hiscore. There should also be a way to keep holds on the hold board even if they don't pass the user vote, but they would not be hiscoreable, and would not be shown on caravelnet.

The updated hold is then hosted on the holds forum and in caravelnet, named XX revison 2. then people can choose to reject this update or not.

this way, novice architechs don't have to just through more hoops, but bad holds can still be rejected, and the same with bad updates.
09-10-2006 at 09:31 AM
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Tahnan
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NiroZ wrote:
Ok, heres what i think should happen to a hold....

I don't know; it sounds kind of baroque to me. Simpler is better. (I still like my idea, but, well.)
09-10-2006 at 04:51 PM
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Syntax
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Well, here's my 2 sub-unit of local currency.

A hold cannot be uploaded unless there exists a demo of every room (presumably accumulated during testing but author is obviously allowed to contribute). The state of every room can then not be modified subsequently.
09-10-2006 at 07:18 PM
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eytanz
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Just to clarify the latter sentence, you basically are saying "holds will not be upgradable anymore"? Or are you saying "Upgrades will only be accepted if the original demo still works for them"? I'd prefer the latter since it would allow for checkpoint addition/trivial solution fixing but it will ensure solvability.

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09-10-2006 at 07:25 PM
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