NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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krammer wrote:
Please don't be offended Noah - just because no-one says anything doesn't mean it's bad. We all like to get feedback, but the more you ask for it the less inclined people are to be friendly. Unless I have anything important to say - such as pointing out flaws in design or - I don't. In other words, no news is good news.

Don't worry, I'm not offended. It just seemed like a long period to go after a level addition for there to be no replies, but we all need to be patient.

I did like your hold. However my only concern is it maybe is too easy - even DD has some tough puzzles on level 3 (the eight Gates, for example.) If you do keep it that way, fine - maybe this could be given a tutorial status or something so that people having problems with DD could use your hold as a practice run? Just a suggestion, and it isn't trying to put down your designs - it's harder to make an easy but interesting hold than a fiendishly difficult one.

Well, the thing is, Oneiromancer made the suggestion that I keep it an easy hold for those fed up with Dugan's, which gave me the idea to start out easier than Dugan's dungeon, but end harder (as stated in the ending). But I don't mind my hold getting a tutorial status, although since the later levels will be much tougher, maybe it could be given the status "Tutorial to Difficult." Just a thought.

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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eytanz wrote:
One thing that annoyed me a bit were all the scrolls boasting about how unique the dungeon is, but that was really minor.

The thing is, I've had a bit of trouble thinking of good scrolls to put in appropriate places, so I had think of something. I know I'm this hold's ultimate judge, but I probably will have some trouble with scrolls in levels like the kinds I'm making. Just so you know.

-Noah

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Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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NoahT wrote:Well, the thing is, Oneiromancer made the suggestion that I keep it an easy hold for those fed up with Dugan's, which gave me the idea to start out easier than Dugan's dungeon, but end harder (as stated in the ending). But I don't mind my hold getting a tutorial status, although since the later levels will be much tougher, maybe it could be given the status "Tutorial to Difficult." Just a thought.

Sure, blame me for everything. Just remember that those people who are getting fed up with Dugan's are probably not getting fed up on the first level, and those who can't beat the second or third levels probably won't enjoy trying to beat the later levels.

It probably makes the most sense to release two holds, a Tutorial hold with the easy rooms you have made (and perhaps some new ones you make) and a regular hold with whatever difficult rooms you make. I think everyone will appreciate shorter holds that have mostly interesting rooms more than huge holds with many mediocre rooms. I also personally think that anyone making a hold that's more than 10 levels long all by themselves is crazy. Even Erik had help on Dugan's, and he was working on it for several years too. And he was doing it for money at the end, which makes it a lot different.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

NoahT
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Sure, blame me for everything.

Heh. I think two blames is enough for now, Neil (oversensitivity, and a conflict-creating suggestion).

Just remember that those people who are getting fed up with Dugan's are probably not getting fed up on the first level, and those who can't beat the second or third levels probably won't enjoy trying to beat the later levels.

Uh-huh. I'll think about this when I'm more awake.

It probably makes the most sense to release two holds, a Tutorial hold with the easy rooms you have made (and perhaps some new ones you make) and a regular hold with whatever difficult rooms you make. I think everyone will appreciate shorter holds that have mostly interesting rooms more than huge holds with many mediocre rooms. I also personally think that anyone making a hold that's more than 10 levels long all by themselves is crazy. Even Erik had help on Dugan's, and he was working on it for several years too. And he was doing it for money at the end, which makes it a lot different.

That might be a good idea, but there's one problem. I said I wanted Nanfro's dungeon to have 27 levels altogether, and 27 divided by 10 is more than two holds. I was just thinking about dividing into three nine-level holds, but three holds for one dungeon kind of seems like overdoing it. We should try and think of something that will work. In the meantime, I should try and get back to creating more levels for my hold.

-Noah

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Tscott
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I've really liked this hold so far. Sometimes it's nice to play through a hold that doesn't require you to tape clear plastic bags to your monitor and make notes on it. I like that level 4 is starting to have some interesting challeges, and as long as the difficulty continues to increase gradually, I think the hold could work. (If on the other hand you were planing on making the first 13 levels super easy and the last half impossible... well...)

I also liked the combination of roaches and wraithwings in a tight spot together, which was something that hadn't really been exploited before. Things start off well, then all of a sudden there's two wraithwings at the head of the line that aren't advancing- can you attack one, or retreat?

Anyway, so far it's fairly enjoyable even if some of the rooms seem trivial to us "expert" players. Keep up the good work.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

LordKinbote
Level: Delver
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Registered: 10-01-2003
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Nice fourth level. There were some good puzzles, despite the fact that the wraithwing is my least favorite creature. It's just a pointless little beast.

.

You have a knack for aesthetically pleasing rooms that still hold good puzzles. Sometimes the aesthetics of a room are detrimental to the puzzles therein. Keep up the good work!

---Scott

Oneiromancer
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Okay, I downloaded your latest version, but I don't see any way for me to warp to the later levels. I don't have the time or the inclination to go through the first three levels again, so do you think you could add a temporary warp room so it's easier for us to playtest? Thanks.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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Well, I just went through the hold anyway. It doesn't take that long to get to level four, but really, in your next release, give us a temporary warp room so we can check out the later levels more easily.

There isn't really much to say about level 4...I liked the design of 1W, I thought 2N 2E didn't deserve its scroll, and I actually had to restart 1S quite a few times until I got it right. I think that 1S is the toughest room you've made so far, in terms of the thought process behind beating the room. I knew what I was supposed to do right away, but I had a tough time manipulating the queens correctly. Perhaps if I had gone up the right side instead of the left...well, anyway. I think I died once on the level (not counting the restarts on 1S), and that was just from an accidental button press. So the difficulty of the majority of the rooms is still pretty easy, which is the way you want it, right?

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Well, I just went through the hold anyway. It doesn't take that long to get to level four, but really, in your next release, give us a temporary warp room so we can check out the later levels more easily.

He left editing rights on - you can add your own warp.

Eytan

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Oneiromancer
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D'oh!

bovis
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 19
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This was one of the best holds i've ever played

NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Thanks!

Anyway, I need to get in more work on Level 5, as it's been a long time since I've updated this hold. It's probably just Game Maker...

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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It's been quite a while now...

Anyway, I have good news. I'm finally done with Level 5. I've also made changes to all the previous levels. I'm updating my hold when I get home from school.

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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My hold has been updated. For those who don't know where my hold attachment is, it's at the first post in this thread.

-Noah

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NoahT
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Fixed a bug and a couple of rooms on Level 2.

-Noah

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NoahT
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Fixed Level 5 bug.

-Noah

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rowrow
Level: Smiter
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I love you'r hold NOAHT. I like rooms that aren't really hard but you don't beat them so easilly.

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Glad you appreciate it! And it's going to get better!

-Noah

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NoahT
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Alright...Level 6 is finally done. And everyone should note that virtually every room in the hold has been edited to increase the amount of puzzle in them. Several rooms have been completely overhauled, too.

Enjoy!

-Noah

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Stefan
Level: Smitemaster

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I've played through your hold, and here's what I've found:

L3:1N2W: The second mimic potion makes this room really trivial.
L4:1S1W: Not very serious, but there is a slightly easier solution to the NE and SE arrow-mazes.
L5:1S1W: You cannot return to the north once you've exited to the west or south.
L6:1S1E: Empty scroll.
L6:1S: Relies a bit too heavily on serpent movement rules. You need to know the exact rules if you don't want to solve the first part with just luck.
L6:2S: Empty scroll.


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0.099³

NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Stefan wrote:
L3:1N2W: The second mimic potion makes this room really trivial.

That was an accident. The second mimic potion was meant for playtesting, and I forgot to remove it.

L4:1S1W: Not very serious, but there is a slightly easier solution to the NE and SE arrow-mazes.

Click here to view the secret text

×In the NE, instead of going N-N-NW-NE-N-NW-SW-S-S-SE-SW you can walk N-N-NW-NW-S-SE-SW (and similarly for the SE maze).

Fixed that. There shouldn't any trivial routes now.

L5:1S1W: You cannot return to the north once you've exited to the west or south.

Turned one of the blocking walls into a green door to fix that.

L6:1S1E: Empty scroll.

Taken care of.

L6:1S: Relies a bit too heavily on serpent movement rules. You need to know the exact rules if you don't want to solve the first part with just luck.

You're right. I'll change the puzzle for that section of the room.

L6:2S: Empty scroll.

Also taken care of.

Thanks for your comments!

-Noah

[Edited by NoahT at Local Time:01-25-2005 at 12:26 AM: Messed up quote tags]

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Okay, Level 7 is done, plus a few room edits and fixes, and one room on Level 6 overhauled partly. And people should note my hold is in kind of a critical state at the time. I want it done before JtRH is released, and I'm planning on at least 5 more levels at the minimum. Does anyone think that would be possible, and if not, what would a good maximum of levels to add be? Thanks in advance for any input.

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Well, so much for releasing my hold before JtRH, but it's almost done anyway. I've made the eighth level, and I've decided to make it the final level. Before I release it, I'd like a couple of volunteers to play through my hold from beginning to end and to tell me what rooms need improvements or have design flaws. Anyone willing to be a tester?

-Noah

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Stefan
Level: Smitemaster

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Ok, I played through the hold from start to finish, so I can guarantee that it is solvable and JtRH-compatible.

The new levels (7 & 8) were very nice (= quite difficult)

L1:2N2W: A checkpoint, please? (for example at (14,12))
L5:3S1W: Ugh, a checkpoint, please.
L7:2N2E: The checkpoint wasn't helpful at all. An another one somewhere in the middle of the room (somewhere inside the grid) would be nice.
L8:3E: This would have been an extremely tedious room if it weren't for the undo- and Ctrl-buttons in JtRH.
L8:1N1W: Evil. Very Evil.

I didn't find any trivial or unintended solutions (I think).

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jdyer
Level: Smiter
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Ran through 1 and 2. No problems there.

Hopped to 7. 2W in particular is too tedious. Why do you have the same thing for three of the sections? You can cut that to one for practice and then have the timed version after that.

NoahT
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Stefan wrote:
L1:2N2W: A checkpoint, please? (for example at (14,12))

Done.

L5:3S1W: Ugh, a checkpoint, please.

Also done.

L7:2N2E: The checkpoint wasn't helpful at all. An another one somewhere in the middle of the room (somewhere inside the grid) would be nice.

Once again done.

L8:3E: This would have been an extremely tedious room if it weren't for the undo- and Ctrl-buttons in JtRH.

I added three more checkpoints, one underneath the 2x2 tar blob. Note that there is a solution where you can

L8:1N1W: Evil. Very Evil.

Thanks!

It shouldn't be too much longer now...

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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jdyer wrote:
Hopped to 7. 2W in particular is too tedious. Why do you have the same thing for three of the sections? You can cut that to one for practice and then have the timed version after that.

Taken care of. Also added a long path between the two sections and shortened the timer, as to enforce the intended solution.

Thanks to both you and Stefan for your assistance! I won't forget to mention you both when I submit my hold.

-Noah

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NoahT
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Alright-the next update. I've made changes where they've been specified, and some changes to Level 8: 1N1E, because it sucked the way it was. Think any more changes would suffice? Thanks in advance.

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Oops, forgot the testing warp to Level 8. I've updated to include this.

-Noah

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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Okay, I hope no one thinks this is impatient, but if no one has something to say I'll probably just upload my hold as soon as uploading is back up. This is intended to be official beta-testing for my hold, just in case there was anyone who didn't realize it.

-Noah

PS: Could someone tell me why hold uploading has been down recently? Thanks.

-Noah

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