NoahT
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File: Nanfro Budkins First Dungeon.hold (58.1 KB)
Downloaded 126 times.
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From: Unspecified

Hello!

Attached are the eight levels of a hold I'm working on called: "Nanfro Budkin's First Dungeon." I've decided to end it here at eight levels.

-Noah

[Edited by NoahT at Local Time:04-11-2005 at 07:02 AM: Update]

[Edited by NoahT at Local Time:04-12-2005 at 06:04 AM: Update-forgot Level 8 warp]

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agaricus5
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Link to Rooted Hold....?

Not a tremendously good idea right now. Remember that Beethro is suspicious about its existence, but isn't really sure where it is or if it exists, and no-one would really just put down a scroll saying "Rooted Hold can be accessed through this dungeon" because Rooted Hold is supposed to be a secret thing (That is, until Beethro finds it).

If you want to do something like this, I'd advise asking Erik about it to keep it consistent.

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agaricus5
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Ok, I've now played the hold and finished it. Here's what I think:

Level 1

General:

I think it's too similar to Dugan's Dungeon's First Level. It seems to be a little unimaginative in terms of theme, shape and style of the rooms, even though the actual rooms themselves are quite different, although if that is the effect you are hoping to achieve, then I guess it's fine.

Specific Rooms:

2N - I don't think the scroll is really necessary in this room as I don't believe that anyone who plays any new dungeon will not have played Dugan's one first. Obviously it's an assumption, but I'm sure it's mostly accurate.

1S 1W - This room was much harder than the one it was based on -

I quite enjoyed clearing the last chamber.

Level 2

General:

Again, many of the rooms borrowed ideas from Dugan's Second level, so it again appeared a little unimaginative. However, some of the rooms were substantially harder than any of the rooms in Dugan's Second Level, like 2N 2E, and quite a few had some interesting "delay Beethro to get the chambers full up with roaches before he can open them". However, one thing to note is that the technique of using the walls/orbs to protect yourself becomes sort of second nature through the level, so some of the later rooms appear much easier than they would if they were placed at the start of the level. One thing you could try is to have roaches coming from a few directions at once so that the player is forced to think about how to stand in relation to the wall/orb, and to also force the player to have to move away from it when there are too many roaches around.

Specific Rooms:

1S 2E - It was quite a fun room to play - avoiding stepping in the wrong place in the narrow corridors was the main challenge for me, made worse by the fact that I'm not in a very patient mood this morning.

However, it needs a checkpoint though, so if I clear one side, I don't have to do it again if I die clearing the second (though being patient is a much better solution to the room than being lazy ).

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zex20913
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Yeah, I definitely agree about taking out that scroll about Rooted Hold. I too have finished this hold, and will commence with commenting on it.

Level 1: It does appear to be too much like Dugan's. I believe one of your scrolls copies another word for word. Not a good idea, even though you are making a Dugan-like dungeon.

2W is pretty time consuming, and far too repetitive.

I agree with Ag's comments on 1S1W.

Level 2:

Definitely better than lvl 1 in terms of copying Dugan's. It intros the roach mamas about the same level Dugan's does, but doesn't copy it at all, save for the "select a path" thing in the entrance.

I would have really liked 2E if the orbs didn't close the other doors. As you have it, it's too easy. This way, it could be a challenge for people who want it.

Pretty good, but I didn't really like any of the rooms, but then again level 2 isn't my favorite either.


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billbuckner
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BTW, It is possible to do all but 2 rooms in level 1 without turning the sword. Find out the 2 offending rooms and the sword direction.

NoahT
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Well, I try to be imaginative, but it can sometimes be hard to me. I was trying to make sure the first level would be easy, and have it get harder as you proceed to Level 27. I didn't want to use lots of features too soon, and I wasn't thinking a whole lot about the scrolls. But you could suggest changes for me, and then I'll update my hold.

I'll try to think of changes, but you could also. We'd want all holds to be designed at their best.

-Noah

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zex20913
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Actually, every room but one can be completed with the sword in one direction. That room is...



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Oneiromancer
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NoahT wrote:
Well, I try to be imaginative, but it can sometimes be hard to me. I was trying to make sure the first level would be easy, and have it get harder as you proceed to Level 27. I didn't want to use lots of features too soon, and I wasn't thinking a whole lot about the scrolls. But you could suggest changes for me, and then I'll update my hold.

I'll try to think of changes, but you could also. We'd want all holds to be designed at their best.

Noah, don't take it so personally. Everyone is trying to offer you constructive criticism, so you can improve your hold yourself. However, it is important that you realize that you shouldn't rely on other people to make your hold better. The hold has your name on it, therefore you are the ultimate judge. If you were collaborating with other people on your hold, then you could expect your collaborators to want the hold to be its best.

I agree that you should not overtly copy Dugan's Dungeon, but it is a good idea to have an easy hold out there for people who get frustrated with Dugan's but still enjoy the game. So make the rooms the way you want to make them, and listen when people tell you that there is a mistake with one of the rooms, and hopefully when you release your hold it will get high enough marks to be featured on the main DROD web page.

Game on,

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NoahT
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Noah, don't take it so personally. Everyone is trying to offer you constructive criticism, so you can improve your hold yourself. However, it is important that you realize that you shouldn't rely on other people to make your hold better. The hold has your name on it, therefore you are the ultimate judge. If you were collaborating with other people on your hold, then you could expect your collaborators to want the hold to be its best.

Don't worry, my asking for help was just a thought. But you're right, Neil, this is my hold to work on.

I agree that you should not overtly copy Dugan's Dungeon, but it is a good idea to have an easy hold out there for people who get frustrated with Dugan's but still enjoy the game. So make the rooms the way you want to make them, and listen when people tell you that there is a mistake with one of the rooms, and hopefully when you release your hold it will get high enough marks to be featured on the main DROD web page.

Right. All of this comes in handy to create a good hold.

-Noah

P.S. I'm going to be busy for a while, so don't expect much to happen to my hold for a while.

[Edited by NoahT on 08-02-2003 at 06:30 AM GMT: Mistake in quoting]

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NoahT
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I've been working on my hold some more. I'll upgrade the download file as soon as I've finished levels 3 and 4.

BTW, how exactly do you upgrade attachments?

-Noah

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Mattcrampy
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FAQ Ninja... strike!

You edit your post, and click "Delete Attachment". Then, finish the edit, and edit again, attaching as normal.

Awayyyy...

Matt

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NoahT
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Okay, I fixed it up a bit and added another level.

Please apologize if anything is a unorganized or weird...After data loss, I was rushing to fix it up.

You can download my hold at the top.

-Noah

[Edited by NoahT on 09-07-2003 at 07:28 AM GMT: Update]

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eytanz
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I just played through levels 1-3 - I quite enjoyed the hold; I like that, unlike most holds out there, it's not aimed at the expert player. But I do agree somewhat with previous posters that the beginning of level 1 is a bit too derivative of Dugan's Dungeon - perhaps just get rid of the sequence of rooms in the beginning before the first roach is introduced? Those were in DD there basically for people to learn how to move Beethro and turn the sword, but probably everyone who downloads new holds knows that, even if they are otherwise beginners.

Also, the secret room on level 3 is marked as required - I'm guessing that's a bug.

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NoahT
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Don't worry, after updating the download, I already began to work on it some more. For one thing, 1S, 1W in Level 3 was a lot harder than I intended it to be, so I'm making the roach queen chambers smaller, and I also put force arrows in them.

If your wondering about the secret room, it's that I'd lost some of my hold data, and for lots of rooms, I was in too much of a hurry to remember to uncheck "Room is required."

Also, thanks for pointing out the "training" on the first level. Don't worry, my hold's going to get better.

-Noah

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Tscott
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File: TFDoN 3Mimics Easy 1S1W Victory.demo (1.2 KB)
Downloaded 123 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

NoahT wrote:
For one thing, 1S, 1W in Level 3 was a lot harder than I intended it to be, so I'm making the roach queen chambers smaller, and I also put force arrows in them.

That room was a pleasant surprise. It can get very ugly, very easily. There still is a good controled solution possible (see attached demo), but it still is a much harder room than the rest of the level.

Anyway, I've found these levels to be pretty enjoyable and can't wait to see what happens as the diffcultly level rises.

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eytanz
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My suggestion - keep 1S1W, and use it in a later level; replace it with a simpler room for the third level. It's a really interesting room, but very unfair for a beginner's level.

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rurbano
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Hi everybody, could anyone please tell me where/how can i download the "The First Dungeon of Noah." and "Claythro Tower."?

Tahnk you.

R

NoahT wrote:
Hello!

Attached are the first two levels of a hold I'm working on called: "The First Dungeon of Noah." I'm planning on this hold having 27 levels altogether, just enough to top "Claythro Tower."

Just some notes on my hold in progress:

So far, most of the rooms in my hold are pretty easy, and there aren't a lot of scrolls. But I was also thinking about Dugan's levels when building mine. So if anyone thinks my levels are too much like Dugan's, just tell me about it.

I removed the download file because it has less levels. Download the next version.

-Noah

[Edited by NoahT on 08-01-2003 at 05:04 AM GMT: Hold Attachment]

[Edited by NoahT on 08-01-2003 at 06:23 AM GMT: Additional Words]

[Edited by NoahT on 09-01-2003 at 10:49 PM GMT: Update]

:~)

StuartK
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rurbano wrote:
Hi everybody, could anyone please tell me where/how can i download the "The First Dungeon of Noah." and "Claythro Tower."?

Tahnk you.

R

Look for file links on the left under the name/avatar. NoahTs is a little harder to find because he removed the first revision of his hold from the first post in this thread. The file link you want is a little later on. It's about 6 messages up from here...

Mattcrampy
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FAQ Ninja... shuffle off mumbling under his breath!

And awayyyy!

Matt is getting guilty twangs...

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krammer
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Also note that L3 1N1W has a very easy and presumably unintended solution:




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StuartK
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I'm seeing some strangeness with this hold. All the default Dugan demos have been replaced with demos from this hold. Additionally, these demos must have been included as part of the hold file itself, because the rooms are not playing how I completed them. Is this a feature, or something else?


As to the rooms themselves, just a few things I noticed

L21N1E has a little spelling mistake on the scroll.

The way level 2 is designed (one long twisty corridor) if I miss a room, I've got to backtrack a long way, which could be boring. Maybe one or two shortcuts would be nice (e.g. something like level 2 1S2E of Dugan) Also, the north exit of the entrance room for level 2 of Dugan just screams 'sidepath - complete me first' Perhaps use similar psychology in your hold...

L31N1W was easier than intended I think (especially having seen the demo for it)

NoahT
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Okay, my hold's has been updated again. I changed it's name to "Nanfro Budkin's First Dungeon," and I fixed things up a bit more. There are no new levels this time.

-Noah

P.S. Just so you know, I'll attach my hold in the top post from now on.

[Edited by NoahT on 09-09-2003 at 01:33 AM GMT: Accidental suffix in P.S.]

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NoahT
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A very small update.

-Noah

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Oneiromancer
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Okay, I finally played through this dungeon, and I think it is a good idea to have an easy dungeon for those who are just starting and get stuck in Dugan's. However, I think you really need not to shove to comparison to Dugan's in the player's face. Especially the scroll on L1 1S1W...that's just mean, especially for your intended purpuse. Oh yeah, and I don't think you should say "this dungeon is good for newbies" or whatever...change the wording to say something more like "this is a good introductory dungeon" so it doesn't make someone feel like they're stupid or inferior for wanting to play your dungeon.

And this has been mentioned before, but you really shouldn't use the rooms that are pretty much direct copies of Dugan's. It's okay to use a little bit as a small portion of the room, but a room like L1 1S1W, although changed slightly, is really just a copy. I'm not sure if any of the others are worth changing because of this, since there's only so much you can do with basic movement. But unique puzzles shouldn't be copied.

Other than what I have said, I think that your dungeon is fine for its purpose. There were a couple of nice rooms that used ideas I hadn't seen before, which is aan important part of good level design, in my opinion. When you make a harder dungeon, try to aim for that!

Game on,

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NoahT
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Alrighty now, I've done some more fixing with my hold and finished making the fourth level (NEW LEVEL!). Let's see what people think now.

-Noah

Edit-Wanted new level to stand out.

[Edited by NoahT on 09-26-2003 at 06:24 AM]

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NoahT
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A bump.

-Noah

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NoahT
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In case anyone wants to know a bit about the fourth level,



Don't highlight the text if you don't want to know!

-Noah

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NoahT
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I'm bumping this thread again.

*Taps foot impatiently while waiting for reply.*

Sorry if this was rude to some...

-Noah

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krammer
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Please don't be offended Noah - just because no-one says anything doesn't mean it's bad. We all like to get feedback, but the more you ask for it the less inclined people are to be friendly. Unless I have anything important to say - such as pointing out flaws in design or - I don't. In other words, no news is good news.

I did like your hold. However my only concern is it maybe is too easy - even DD has some tough puzzles on level 3 (the eight Gates, for example.) If you do keep it that way, fine - maybe this could be given a tutorial status or something so that people having problems with DD could use your hold as a practice run? Just a suggestion, and it isn't trying to put down your designs - it's harder to make an easy but interesting hold than a fiendishly difficult one.

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eytanz
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Yeah - same here - there just isn't that much to talk about. Normally I might have posted to say "nice, keep up the good work", but not when you keep asking for feedback. Not out of principle or anything, but I don't like giving compliments when I feel someone was fishing for them.

As for the hold - I like it; it's easy, but I think that's nice. One thing that annoyed me a bit were all the scrolls boasting about how unique the dungeon is, but that was really minor.

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