silver
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in the hold-topic for a particular SS hold, jbluestein wrote:

I agree that there is a place for Expert-level holds. I'm less convinced that the Smitemaster's Selection is in fact the place for these holds.

The SS Holds are (to me) one of the main selling points of CaravelNet memberships. If the goal is to get as many members as possible, then this selling point ought to be more accessible. Of all the CaravelNet members currently registered, what percentage do you think are up to the challenge of this hold? (I'm guessing it's a pretty small number.)

...

I accept that there will be holds like that (I'd better accept it, as there are plenty), but I'm not really happy about paying for the privilege of being stumped quite this badly, and I suspect that this is not the best way for Caravel to attract more members.

It seemed to be advertised to me almost a year ago that there was going to be this idea of "high quality" holds with canonical additions to story. and throw in some voice acting, too.

since when did "impossibly hard" become equal to high quality?

I haven't gotten past the 9-puzzles level in Secret Society; I only managed Perfection because all the hints and solutions threads ended with a demo from Larry, and I'm unable to get off the first level in Teacher.

This is fine, this is all very well and good, if you are advertising and selling an "impossibly hard hold showcase", but I don't think that's attractive to the masses and I'm not sure it's what was advertised to me.


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Banjooie
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I'm...really, really tired of the superhard SS holds.

I'm not going to bother finishing Perfection.

The Choice was a nice difficulty level.

Halph has a bad day was a nice difficulty level.

larrymurk
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I believe Erik is hoping to produce some easier (even kiddy level) SS holds if possible.

As for the SS so far..

The Choice and Halph Has a Bad Day weren't too tough.
Perfection(wasn't that a classic?), maybe a little thinking required.
Beethro & the Secret Society. I thought the 9 puzzles was the hardest part which is unfortunate because it is right near the beginning and many will never get past it.
Beethro's Teacher, Once again the first level here has some rooms I found extremely difficult. I believe I only had as much trouble on the final level.

I still wish there was a "Skip room" button or have demos available before completing rooms. Until then I'm sure going to be asking for hints-a-plenty.

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 06-06-2006 07:34 PM]

Ezlo
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You know, just wanted to say, I've mastered Perfection, I've mastered The Secret Society. I have yet to even conquor Halph has a Bad Day or The Choice. What is wrong with me?

jbluestein
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silver wrote:

It seemed to be advertised to me almost a year ago that there was going to be this idea of "high quality" holds with canonical additions to story. and throw in some voice acting, too.

since when did "impossibly hard" become equal to high quality?

I haven't gotten past the 9-puzzles level in Secret Society; I only managed Perfection because all the hints and solutions threads ended with a demo from Larry, and I'm unable to get off the first level in Teacher.

This is fine, this is all very well and good, if you are advertising and selling an "impossibly hard hold showcase", but I don't think that's attractive to the masses and I'm not sure it's what was advertised to me.

Not surprisingly (since you quoted me), I absolutely concur.

I don't actually have a problem with the difficulty level of Beethro and the Secret Society or Halph Has a Bad Day (although both have some fairly difficult stuff in them) -- I always felt like I had a chance with enough experimentation.

Perfection is a real killer, and I've yet to finish it (still on Perfect 3, more for lack of focus than anything else). I didn't feel that upset by it, though, possibly because I got it about the time I was getting into DROD, and it seemed reasonable that there would be some really hard stuff out there.

But one super-difficult SmS hold in a year is something I can live with. Two is a lot harder to stomach, because I really really want to play them, and I just can't do it.

To be clear: I don't want to tell Erik or Mike or Henri how to run their business (or design their holds, respectively). They're the creators and have the right to do whatever they want.

I wouldn't even consider cancelling/not renewing my CaravelNet subscription over this. I love the forum and missed it greatly when it was gone.

But, speaking as a customer, I'm finding that the value proposition of the SmS Holds just went down by a lot. I'm not going to stop paying attention to them, but I probably won't look forward to the next one with as great a level of anticipation (checking the Holds board several times each day to see whether it was up yet or not).

And again, this isn't a comment on quality of the holds, which seems consistently high. Just the difficulty.

Hmmm. Guess I've found a personal hot button.

Josh

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eytanz
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I'm in agreement with the general sentiment here and I don't have too much to add that wasn't already said, except that in the Caravel private forums there is currently a discussion going on about how to best address this issue for future SmS holds, so even if no-one official is saying anything public just yet don't feel like this discussion is falling on blind ears.

I would like to ask, however, that you direct your criticism at the people behind the organization of the SmS - that's primarily Erik and Mike, and to a lesser degree the rest of the Caravel dev team - but not at Doom/Henri since he's really not to blame here. He just made a hold and submitted it, and it was accepted without much comment on the difficulty of the puzzles. Had he been asked to make easier puzzles, I'm sure he would have been up to it, or he would have withdrawn his submission from SmS, but the fact is that he wasn't asked.

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Schik
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eytanz wrote:
don't feel like this discussion is falling on blind ears.

Or deaf eyes, for that matter.



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ErikH2000
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In response to posts here, we've had a lot of discussion about this amongst Caravel team members. Some conclusions:

* There's a place for difficult holds in Smitemaster's Selections, but we'll have some variety in difficulty from one issue to the next. So far the difficulty actually has alternated with our odd-numbered issues having moderate difficulty and the even-numbered issues having hard difficulty. The next issue will have an easier hold.

* The general difficulty of the holds is turned up a little too high. Our hardest holds should be a little bit easier than Perfection and Beethro's Teacher, unless we are releasing them simultaneously with an easier hold in the same issue. Our system is probably biased towards high-difficulty holds right now because the people doing the most testing on them are incredibly skilled at DROD. Also authors tend to make their holds more difficult than they intend.

* We'll encourage hold authors to scale back difficulty by having a smoother difficulty curve in their levels, making very hard rooms optional/secret, and allowing laxer solutions to rooms while preserving lynchpins. Optional challenges can be added to rooms to give those extra-elite smitemasters something to test them. And there's always the scoreboard for further displays of skill.

* Hold testing after approval for Smitemaster's Selection will address difficulty problems as well as finding bugs.

* We'll pick up some more hold testers that are at an intermediate or novice level.

-Erik

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Doom
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eytanz wrote:
He just made a hold and submitted it, and it was accepted without much comment on the difficulty of the puzzles. Had he been asked to make easier puzzles, I'm sure he would have been up to it, or he would have withdrawn his submission from SmS, but the fact is that he wasn't asked.

I had some discussion about this before submitting the hold, and was actually a bit concerned about too high difficulty. Erik told me that if I found some places that could be made a little easier without really affecting how the room plays, I could make some adjustments. The truth, however, is that on average only one or two rooms per levels were changed to easier (And in some cases very slightly). It's not always so simple to make such changes without major room reconstruction. But as said, it went through, and this wasn't really mentioned after that.

Erik has some good points there. Most of the testers were highly skilled players, and got through the thing far more easily than other people will. More opinions from novices could've been helpful: I believe that only one of the ~8 people who did testing gave up with the hold. If you think about it, that gives highly distorted picture of how difficult the hold is.

But hey, the people who make the decisions hear the complaints directly. I'm fairly confident that there will be less need for them in the future. And won't cancel my subscription even if there will be less hard holds in the future

Syntax
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ErikH2000 wrote:
* The general difficulty of the holds is turned up a little too high. Our hardest holds should be a little bit easier than Perfection and Beethro's Teacher, unless we are releasing them simultaneously with an easier hold in the same issue. Our system is probably biased towards high-difficulty holds right now because the people doing the most testing on them are incredibly skilled at DROD. Also authors tend to make their holds more difficult than they intend.

At this point, I would just like to suggest an in-game design option allowing different room layouts for 2 to 3 different difficulty settings? This would allow the author to design the hold at the difficulty level intended, but offer tweaks in rooms to simplify what is required at other difficulty levels.

Testing wise, and with the quality of players participating in this process, I don't think it would increase testing time too much. A lot of players are able to spot whether a similar room to one tested remains possible.

High score wise, probably only the greater difficulty should take precedence, or maybe exclusiveness. There are plenty of existing holds which some players will not be able to finish. This idea would still allow completeness, though only the "hardest solution" would be rewarded in the high scores.

I'm mostly inspired by Odd Jobs for this idea. I think it pulled off the principle beautifully, and few complained that Expert mode was too hard as the other 2 versions were always accessible.

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I think it's quite suited for this thread too.

jbluestein
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Syntax wrote:
At this point, I would just like to suggest an in-game design option allowing different room layouts for 2 to 3 different difficulty settings? This would allow the author to design the hold at the difficulty level intended, but offer tweaks in rooms to simplify what is required at other difficulty levels.

[...]

I'm mostly inspired by Odd Jobs for this idea. I think it pulled off the principle beautifully, and few complained that Expert mode was too hard as the other 2 versions were always accessible.

I like the idea, although I would also like to point out Larrymurk's 'Easy or Hard' hold, as it offered two or three different ways to solve each room in the hold. Point being, you don't have to have a special option.

There are also holds where special rewards await those who complete rooms 'the hard way'. I'm thinking of 'Labyrinthitis' in particular here, but scripting along that line would probably go a long way towards meeting that need. Still some extra bonuses for those who do things the hard way, but nothing that prevents conquering the hold.



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larrymurk
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I thought "King Pilchard VIII's Dungeon" did a nice job with challenges. It had seperate, optional rooms for challenges where the challenge was enforced. Very fun.

AlefBet
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Syntax wrote:
At this point, I would just like to suggest an in-game design option allowing different room layouts for 2 to 3 different difficulty settings?

This idea has been suggested before, and I would find such a feature interesting if it weren't just impractical to use properly. If authors have a tendency to underestimate the difficulty of their rooms, I think that is indicative of the general intractable nature of gauging puzzle difficulty, without even considering the problems coming up with variations that are X-amount easier or harder. I wouldn't be surprised if on occasion the "easy" version would end up being harder than the "hard" version.

However, I also think that this type of multi-difficulty hold design is also already possible with what we have (at a rudimentary level). A room can have three entrances with scrolls indicating the difficulties of them and scripting used to tweak game elements to effect the appropriate difficulty. Or, if push comes to shove, an architect can create three versions of a room and have them all lead to the same required -- but trivial -- room, making them all options of each other.

I think it would be interesting if more of these kinds of holds would be made. If they became more common, it might justify supporting difficulty variations better with the game engine. On the other hand, if architects don't do this type of thing with what we already have, it probably suggests that such a feature wouldn't be much used even if it were available.

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Ezlo
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Or what you could do, is have three versions of the hold, and have a one room meta-level at the begining where you choose your difficulty. One staircase would be easy, one medium, and one hard.

Stephen4Louise
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ErikH2000 wrote:
* There's a place for difficult holds in Smitemaster's Selections, but we'll have some variety in difficulty from one issue to the next. So far the difficulty actually has alternated with our odd-numbered issues having moderate difficulty and the even-numbered issues having hard difficulty. The next issue will have an easier hold.

The main problem I have with the harder holds is that so far they are tending to be the canonical ones, which means a lot of people are missing out on the story.
Maybe if each quarter there was a smaller hold released along with the main offering for that month, a killer small hold on the odd issues and something a little easier on the evens.

If there isn't enough submissions of this type, maybe an announcement in the newsletter would be appropriate.

Banjooie
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It's sort of unfortunate that all the canon ones have been the hardest ones, yeah.

Beef Row
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What could really be unfortunate right now is that JUST as the new system for CaravelNet is put into place, the newest hold has the hardest opening yet... and is the only one available to the newest subscribers.

For people with full access, whether the newest hold is deadly hard or an easier hold is a non-issue. But if a new subscriber finds that the ONLY hold they've gained is far too difficult for them, it may turn them off from CaravelNet, or even from DROD entirely.

And Beethro's Teacher is VERY hard, especially for someone who may be a new subscriber.

Perhaps a supplemental hold could be released for this season? Otherwise, CaravelNet looks like a seriously bad deal for anyone who isn't a power player right now. And I don't think thats the right message to new players at all.

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jbluestein
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Beef Row wrote:
What could really be unfortunate right now is that JUST as the new system for CaravelNet is put into place, the newest hold has the hardest opening yet... and is the only one available to the newest subscribers.

Perhaps a supplemental hold could be released for this season? Otherwise, CaravelNet looks like a seriously bad deal for anyone who isn't a power player right now. And I don't think thats the right message to new players at all.

I like that idea...maybe make, say, The Choice available to all CaravelNet members again (probably the easiest and certainly the smallest of the SmS holds so far)?

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Jatopian
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I would recommend that CaravelNet subscribers be allowed to pick any 1 of the Smitemasters' Selections per 1/4 year of membership, including discontinued ones. That way they can read reviews of each and be sure to get what they most want, without Caravel losing (more) money.
On a tangential note, I really think there should be some way for newbies to obtain those past holds (if there is, I'm sorry for not paying attention; I have all SS holds).

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Syntax
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I would just like to point out, and being optimistically inspired by McFrugal's reply in H&S upon reaching the solution here, that there is actually a difference between *very hard* holds, and *clever and original* ones.

Beethro's teacher, for me, falls firmly in the latter category. It's not *actually* about game mechanics, or slashing through 20 goblins using preplaced roaches to change their path. It's not about hoping that wraithwings fall into the right place after 200 moves. And it's certianly not about needing a slayer to hack the wombat at the other edge of the screen by contortions of his sword whilst you navigate a trap door filled other-half [SIC].

So... what is the difference between a *very hard* hold, and a *clever and original* one?
Well, these are *very hard rooms*:
Trapdoor clearance with simultaneous mimic motion, and only 3 or so solutions across 60+ squares
Ridiculous display of the definiton of the word trap. Utterly unforgiving, and in a way you won't realise until turn 400+
And this... behind the top left tar is a maze which can only be cut with so much foresight, it's actually almost impossible. Draining, and extremely difficult to predict. And draining. And... extremely diffcult to predict. And despite what it looks, it's actually timed.

So... what's my point? Well, I just wanted to point out that I believe there is a difference between a hell, and a heaven in hell. Beethro's teacher achieves the latter, and there are so many, far more "difficult" rooms out there which no-one complains about. I know about the whole membership thing, but come on! Even in my early days I'd pay 3 times that current sum to get a heavily pixelated jetpacked guy saving a green dot 6 times... and then "Thanks for playing".

So (you ask)... what is the difference between a *very hard* hold, and a *clever and original* one?

Relief versus feeling of achievement... That's all, but that's it. And Beethro's teacher achieves the latter.

eytanz
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Syntax - I agree, but I think you're missing part of the point. Which is, the line between *very hard* and *clever and original* is not a fixed one, but rather one that depends on who is playing. The more skilled you are, the less frustrating some tasks become, leaving room to appreciate the other tasks. One problem in my design of the third level of Halph has a Bad Day is that most of the rooms depend on finding the right position to fend off a horde of goblins. But to appreciate these puzzles, people need to be able to fend of a horde of goblnis in the first place. People who don't have that skill are out of luck, and probably HhaBD is not the best place to learn it.

Similarly, Beethro's Teacher is great if you already know how to optimally handle roach hordes. Almost all the rooms take that as given, a background skill that you need in order to even face the puzzle. For someone like you or me, that's possible. For less experienced players, it's just as frustrating as an unfair tar-maze is.

The main difference, and why I think Beethro's Teacher is a great hold, is that if you have the skills, it's totally fair. The examples you give (except arguably the first one) are never fair, no matter how good a player you are.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 06-09-2006 12:20 AM]

Syntax
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eytanz wrote:
the line between *very hard* and *clever and frustrating* [--snip--]
The examples you give (except arguably the first one) are never fair, no matter how good a player you are.

My quote should be *very hard* and *clever and original*
[--snip--]
The first is fair? Only 3 people have completed it... which is at most the same as the second.

As for difficulty, and roach/rq horde dealings, it's no different to a puzzle involving 3 wolves, 5 cabbages, 7 sheep, and 4 boats... The puzzle element remains intact, but just more complex and that is what makes the hold *clever and original* and simply not *exhaustingly hard*...

Every method has its price, but every solution has its reward.

eytanz
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Syntax wrote:

eytanz wrote:
the line between *very hard* and *clever and frustrating* [--snip--]
The examples you give (except arguably the first one) are never fair, no matter how good a player you are.

My quote should be *very hard* and *clever and original*
[--snip--]

Oops. Fixed.

The first is fair? Only 3 people have completed it... which is at most the same as the second.

Gah! I don't know where my mind was. I meant that the second is arguably fair, since at least once you realize the trap you can start over. Still, I'm not sure if it's a room I ever played - I'm not sure where it's from - but from the three you posted, it looks like the only one I would have trid attempting (well, I would have used a transparent tar mod to get by the tar maze, perhaps).

Could you actually provide the sources for the three rooms in question? I'm curious.

As for difficulty, and roach/rq horde dealings, it's no different to a puzzle involving 3 wolves, 5 cabbages, 7 sheep, and 4 boats... The puzzle element remains intact, but just more complex and that is what makes the hold *clever and original* and simply not *exhaustingly hard*...

No, I disagree. With at least some rooms, it's more like a puzzle about a wolf, a cabbage, and a sheep - written in French. It's a fair, clever puzzle, *if you can read French*, but if you can't, you can't even get started (ok, that's an exaggerated example, but the principle is closer than how you presented it, I think).


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[Last edited by eytanz at 06-09-2006 12:27 AM]

Ezlo
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I have to agree with Eytanz right now. Most of the puzzles in Beethro's Teacher seem to be written in French and then translated into a variant of Italian only known to members of a secret orginazation that has long ceased to exist. It might be only more complicated roach hoarding puzzles, but the words: "more complicated" doesn't automaticly make it not hard to the point of insanity. Take the three "Hard rooms" you mention earlier. The trapdoor and mimic puzzle, that's only advanced trapdoor and mimic techniques. Same with the second room, if you're advanced enough you would see that trap right off the bat!

Hell, and Heaven in Hell are things that each person defines himself. Each person can like different puzzles, each person has a different max difficulty level they can stand. Insane SmS are nice, but some people might want some casual difficulties too.

Beef Row
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Syntax wrote:
there is actually a difference between *very hard* holds, and *clever and original* ones.

Beethro's teacher, for me, falls firmly in the latter category.

Whether Beethro's Teacher is a good hold isn't the question. Whether its a clever hold, isn't the question.

The question is, as a relatively new player, would this hold be at all accessible? Does it make a good example of what Smitemasters' Selection holds are, when taken alone?

I've got nothing against the hold at all. But I don't think many new CaravelNet members will be ready for it.

I like that the Smitemaster's Selection includes holds like this and Perfection, but I don't think its good when something like that is the only one available to new members. If it was arbitrarily hard while lacking clever puzzles, well, THEN I'd have a problem with the hold itself.

Right now I'm just thinking that both new players and Caravel might have been better served if this was a dual release with a easier hold, even a small one.

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Oneiromancer
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jbluestein wrote:
I like that idea...maybe make, say, The Choice available to all CaravelNet members again (probably the easiest and certainly the smallest of the SmS holds so far)?

I clearly can't let people forget about this comment.

Game on,

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tonyk
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I thought perhaps the opinion of an intermediate player may be helpful here. My ratings of them so far would be:

The Choice - Difficulty 5 (Still a good hold Oneiromancer!)
Perfection - Difficulty 8
Halph Has a Bad Day - Difficulty 7
Beethro and the SS - Difficulty 8
Beethro's Teacher - Difficulty 9.5 (But I'm lovin' it anyway)

There definitely needs to be some intermediate level testing. Most SS holds will rely to a greater extent on the player's knowledge of the "physics" of the game.

The dual release is, from my point of view, the best option. The current SS holds all have that slither of genius, which I'm more than happy to pay for.

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Syntax
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eytanz wrote:
Could you actually provide the sources for the three rooms in question? I'm curious.

Good point. Apologies for not mentioning the originating holds. Thought somehow it could be derived from the pictures, but guess not With the expectant foreboding of losing some well-earned high score points here are the sources in order:
I Ching Contest -> I Ching Contest Level (Agaricus) -> Entrance
Unfortunate Architect -> Restricted Resources -> 1E
Roaches Revenge -> Level 8 -> 1N

Ezlo wrote:
Same with the second room, if you're advanced enough you would see that trap right off the bat!

Well, I guess in this case, the pic doesn't really do the difficulty justice. Let's just say it's a *lot* harder than it looks. Or in fact, how the eyes look

Ezlo
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I know, but if you were good enough with eyes, then you would see it!

Oneiromancer
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tonyk wrote:
The Choice - Difficulty 5 (Still a good hold Oneiromancer!)

Not that I don't appreciate the compliment, but...the way you said "still" might be part of the problem. I'm talking about how difficulty is often--either directly or indirectly--associated with hold quality. Probably the most vocal people on the board are the ones that are the most proficient players, which is definitely helpful on the H&S board, but seems to also skew the Holds board. It is clearly possible to make entertaining rooms that are of intermediate difficulty, and I think that there are just as many ways to do this as to make an extremely hard room. Once you start getting into the realm of "easy" rooms then the choices become much more limited, but I think that most of the very difficult rooms are essentially a lot of less tough puzzles combined together in one room. Well, just my opinion.

Game on,

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