StuartK
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 564
Registered: 06-10-2003
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When mimics are being placed in order to be used in formation, the order they are placed affects the way they move, and bump into each other e.g. two mimics A & B, when placed as

A
B

or

B
A

will move and collide differently. Rooms in which multiple mimics are available to perform tar stabbing formation puzzles can be incompletable, if the mimics are placed the wrong way around. This does not seem intuitive to me, and I'm having difficulty directing the order in which mimics are placed, and in which position, especially if a room has a time element. Plus, if I am directing placement, this removes an element from the puzzle. In one room I'm also using a tar mother as a timer trap (the room has to be completed very quickly) so I don't want to force Beethro to run round in circles.


I see a few options, but don't know which (if any) is best

1) Instead of processing mimics in their placement order, process them top-down left-right according to their current screen placement. Mimic behaviour would still be familiar, predictable, but not identical.

2) Allow the order of processing to be defined individually. This would have the consequence of mimics behaving differently when bumping in some rooms compared to others.

3) Leave it alone. Level designers shouldn't use mimic formations except by forcing the mimics to be placed in a certain order. This limits the number of potential mimic formation puzzles.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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I vote for (3); (1) seems even less intuitive (to me) - and it has to consequence of similarly reducing the possible puzzles; you could never have a mimic be blocked by a mimic to its SE, for instance. I'm not sure how (2) could be handled without extremely complicating the interface and making things even less intuitive. I'm also not sure I agree that (3) actually reduces the possibility of mimic formation puzzles - it makes some impossible, of course, but it makes others possible (you can build a room which requires mimics bouncing off each other in multiple directions, made impossible by (1)).

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StuartK
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 564
Registered: 06-10-2003
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eytanz wrote:
I vote for (3); (1) seems even less intuitive (to me) - and it has to consequence of similarly reducing the possible puzzles; you could never have a mimic be blocked by a mimic to its SE, for instance.

So you turn the puzzle on its head. I don't think any /good/ puzzles would be blocked (yes I know, subjective) Mimic bouncing puzzles might have a novelty, which would still exist with such a change, and would still be possible to create. They'd just have to be made in a certain orientation.

I don't understand why you think (1) would be less intuitive. The behaviour would still be as observed. More predictable IMO (this could turn into a repetetive argument )

I'm not sure how (2) could be handled without extremely complicating the interface and making things even less intuitive.

Agree. I guess that was the novelty, obviously wrong phone in choice.

I'm also not sure I agree that (3) actually reduces the possibility of mimic formation puzzles - it makes some impossible, of course, but it makes others possible (you can build a room which requires mimics bouncing off each other in multiple directions, made impossible by (1)).

Same point as (1) How could players be expected to solve mimic puzzles where the mimics bounce in multiple directions, according to the order in which they were placed? Should the mimics have numbers on their heads? Not intuitive. Downright frustrating and annoying, in a random kind of way, I imagine.

Whilst (1) would block certain puzzles, the person who has mimics bounce off each other in (3) would make no friends doing so, unless the puzzle is leading the player by the nose (in which case it's not really a puzzle, just a gimmick, who's novelty will wear off)

Since we're here, lets throw another couple of options in the pot (don't agree or disagree with these, just trying to cover everything)

(4) Mimics never bounce (mimics always move at the same time, and would thus not, in reality, bounce were it not for the grid and processing order natures of DROD)

(5) Mimics always bounce, no matter the orientation.


I couldn't actually tell for certain unless I could playtest the various behaviours though. The only reason I'm discovering the subtleties here is through trial and error while building. I don't however think that a puzzle, which relies on bouncing mimics in multiple directions, according to the order in which the mimics were placed, is a good puzzle. Someone prove me wrong

[Edited by StuartK on 07-13-2003 at 05:19 PM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5106
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Well, take Sam's Puzzles, 1W. To me this is a really creative puzzle but also requires placing the mimics in the right order. I'm tempted to label this room "DROD: The Untold Story" or "DROD: Things your Mother Never Told You" or "DROD: Now with Ketchup and Puppies" or...

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zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
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I think I'm going to make a new hold about those two things. Should be comedic if nothing else.

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zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Alright...the new hold is on the General Board.

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