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leroy00
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icon CaravelNet goes standalone (+2)  
Erik posted in this topic about CaravelNet going separate ways from JtRH. I don't want to start a flame war or appear as if I am some sort of microeconomics expert, and I hesitate to even start this thread, but I do wish to sensibilise the dev team to a topic which I think is important to the community as well as to DROD itself. This thread is explicitly not meant to discuss the values of CaravelNet or the monetary equivalent to its ideal and labour-derived value. I think everyone here knows that it represents a lot of work, past and future, and probably all of us enjoy its features. That said....

I like CaravelNet... well, it would be more accurate to say, I appreciate it and am looking forward to the new features planned, since a lot of it is not yet implemented. However, you may wish to consider two things. Firstly, please don't forget that lots of potential customers and even forumites are not US/Canada residents and have a hard time making payments into the US. While I would be willing to pay for the subscription per se (I mean, it's only $1 per month!), the difficulty of making the payment is somewhere between annoying and prohibitive. The effort was worth it to get an original first-run JtRH-CD, but I would think twice before getting a second subscription to CaravelNet.

Secondly, I would be willing to pay, I dunno, $20 extra for a life-time subscription. Of course, that amount may also be prohibitive for some, but (a) it is not certain how long CaravelNet will be in existance and how much content it will offer, (b) for those who it is too high a price, they can select consecutive subscriptions at the standard price, albeit at a higher total price, (c) a two-month subscription inclusive would be a good chance to convince the player that it is worth paying for, and the result of his decision lies largely in the hands of the DROD team, (d) you may be of the opinion that the price is too low for a life-time subscription, in which case, consider (a) and set the price as you see fit. I suppose substituting the words "three to five year" for "life-time" would serve the same purpose, because, heck no-one plans longer than that anyway. I mean, the Comet'o'Death[tm] may be on its way as we speak. (To put it in perspective, two years is certainly enough time for a standard DRODer to finish all the holds currently available.) You can really only harness the large potential for internet marketing if you try to remain as internationally compatible as possible.

The forseeable knee-jerk reactions are going to be something like "What about paypal?" and "If you really want it, borrow a credit card". To the first, I would have to say that I've gotten along without it for the past thirty years, and really don't have the time and leisure to worry about it just for one payment every 12 months, to the second I would have to say: That is an attitude that less-involved forumites can afford, but not one which is an option for someone trying to establish a business/product line. I don't mean this last part to sound condescending, I just don't think that is a valuable line of discussion. We all just want to remain a big, happy family. ;)

-leroy is just trying to help

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06-09-2005 at 11:12 AM
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rothro
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icon Re: CaravelNet goes standalone (+2)  
Hi,

I would like to throw in some of my experiences with international purchases. I am a german living in the UK for many years, with strong work ties to several other european countries and the US, so the subject of international (micro)payments and money transfers comes up regularly. In my opinion what could be easy and straightforward is blocked by banks in order to reap enormous charges for international transfers. It used to be DM 30 (EUR 15) 10 years ago regardless of amount transferred from germany to most countries. Horrendous.

The easiest option was to find an internet bank that operates in both germany and the UK and allows transfers between its accounts free of charge, even if they are held in different countries. That is already the positive exception.

The only other way to operate with currencies in an easy way unfortunately is the credit card. Big credit card companies are operating internationally and give you very fair rates on the conversion - if you want to have a card. And here opinions diverge. I used to be very adverse to the credit card as such, danger of losing track, possibility of fraud, etc. I applied for one only after I had to travel to the US and found that it is almost impossible to get by without one there. It got virtually zero use after that. Until I started to realise that if I indeed want the latest walkman with all features I need to buy in Japan.
Today I regularly use it to purchase goods internationally - it is simply the way to do it.

I know you are now thinking . o O (I said, that's not helpful), but if I look at it from a company point of view, Caravel is US based, and at the end of the day the money needs to end up there. The internet has shrunk the world, and the browser does a great job at pretending that borders no longer exist, but in the real world of trade they still do and funds need to physically transfer, according to all taxes, fees, regulations and laws.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is almost impossible to open a store in every country. Corporate law is tricky and vastly different from place to place. In addition, most exchange rates vary, and given the fact that the possible consumer base consists of clever people who enjoy working out the most efficient solution to a problem it would (in extremis) soon lead to threads like "Which country to purchase in today" for the cheapest rate. Maybe Plimus has experience with that sort of thing, but judging from the terms and conditions of the vast majority of internet companies there does not seem to be an easy and straightforward way to do it, or many more companies would do it. The pay-by-credit-card-and-download-the-software model has certainly been established as one of the more successful ways to do international business, but it is possible only because a) the credit card company deals with the international transfer, b) the price exists in ONE location (US in this case) c) the user can access the internet anywhere in the world (hopefully).

Perhaps if it is clear that 50% of all DROD fans live in, say, Luxembourg or Iceland or Togo, then it might make good business sense to specifically target that country in a separate fashion, but otherwise the cost of establishing a company in a country may well exceed the expected profits from that part of the world.

I know this does not sound encouraging or helpful, but I can not see a more straightforward or easy way than to use a credit card.

Cheers
Rothro

PS Sorry if I was rambling there.

PPS That was not a knee-jerk reaction...

PPPS It would be really interesting to hear from someone who has set up an international business on this matter!

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06-09-2005 at 03:38 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: CaravelNet goes standalone (0)  
Nobody likes to hear that things are going to cost more money, or in this case, that something free will begin to cost money. So if I say, "which do you guys like better--free CaravelNet or $12/year CaravelNet?" people are going to say "free", of course.

But if I asked instead "which do you guys like better--CaravelNet as it is now with no improvements or CaravelNet with constantly-updated features and 4 official add-on releases each year?" then I suspect most would say the latter. The new pricing scheme supports further CaravelNet development. Not literally, since Matt Schikore's DROD wage is something like 7 cents an hour at this point. But the model is more straightforward and lets us see if our ideas for online features have any kind of future. I mean, how does a DROD MMOG in 2 or 3 years sound to you? Cool, right? We have to take a few baby steps in that direction to know if things like that are even possible.

Or what if I asked instead "which do you guys like better--Caravel making more DROD games or Caravel switching to a closed source project where we can exclude features from the demo to make the registered version more compelling?" You see, CaravelNet is more heavily promoted because of DROD's open source status. We can't make DROD closed source or disable features in the demo. That is a challenging handicap for us.

We didn't decide lightly to change CaravelNet pricing. Like most anything we do, it could be a mistake, but I think not. We'll just have to try it and see.

-Erik

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06-09-2005 at 06:10 PM
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ErikH2000
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The last reply I made was directed at Leroy. This one is for Rothro.

A lot of the things you bring up are interesting, but just not practical at this point. We rely on a separate payment processing company to handle all of the tricky e-commerce things. If we had money and time to spend on this, we might figure how to do something like have a European company process orders for us, but for now it is too much.

It has been strange for me to see that are a large number of people in Europe without credit cards. In the US, if you simply have a bank account, you are issued a debit card that acts as a credit card but draws from your account. Is this uncommon in Europe? I haven't owned a credit card in maybe 10 years, but have used my bank cards for just about everything as a Visa purchase.

I'm trying to find practical ways to make it easier and cheaper for European customers. I recently changed the CD orders so they don't charge VAT. It may actually be a better deal to buy a CD than downloadable-only. In theory, EU people might still have to pay VAT on delivery, but I suspect it hasn't been happening. Has anybody in Europe who received a CD had to pay VAT on delivery?

I also have set up an account with a second payment processing company. It allows use of PayPal and a few other payment options. I'm still considering if I want to use it as a backup processor--in some ways it's not as good as Plimus.

-Erik

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06-09-2005 at 06:35 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Whats a Drod MMOG ? Or better what means MMOG ? Is this just like a name (like JtrH) or a shorthand for a special service ?
06-09-2005 at 07:00 PM
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Doom
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Massive Multiplayer Online Game, I think. (pretty close to that anyway)
06-09-2005 at 07:03 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Yes, what Doom said. Usually used in reference to something like EverQuest, a MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game), but if you want to also consider first-person shooters, or certain strategy games I suppose, then you can be more generic with MMOG.

Puzzle Pirates might be a good example of an MMOG that doesn't fit in typically defined categories.

Game on,

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06-09-2005 at 07:05 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I strongly doubt that a DROD MMOG would be derivative of Everquest. At least, not if I have anything to say about it.

I know in Australia, credit cards (and debit cards that can act like them) aren't awfully common - I asked my bank, and they don't even do debit cards. I think it comes from Australia's banking laws being federal rather than state, so banks quickly opened up branches country-wide and set up a decent infrastructure, which they've been slowly replacing with ATMs. The standard EFTPOS access card can pretty much do whatever you need it to, except apparantly use it on the Internet.

I'm not sure, but I understand that banks are much more provincial in the US, and the credit card companies are much like the banks here - big and ubiquitous.

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06-10-2005 at 03:04 AM
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Oneiromancer
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I strongly doubt that a DROD MMOG would be derivative of Everquest. At least, not if I have anything to say about it.

No one ever said it would. MMOG is generic, MMORPG is specific. That was why I linked Puzzle Pirates...it's an MMOG that isn't an RPG.

Game on,

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06-10-2005 at 03:14 AM
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jamie
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Erik, my experience here in the UK is as you describe yours in the US. You get a bank account, with a debit card for the ATM, that can also be used as a VISA card, but taken direct from your account.. I've had one of these cards for 17 years, so it's hardly a new thing!

(I'm also happy to use my credit cards, but whilst I know a lot of people don't want credit cards, I'm surprised that the debit card is an issue for anyone over the age of 18 [Again, I'm talking about the UK])



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06-10-2005 at 03:28 AM
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rothro
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Hi,

ErikH2000 wrote:
The last reply I made was directed at Leroy. This one is for Rothro.

It has been strange for me to see that are a large number of people in Europe without credit cards. In the US, if you simply have a bank account, you are issued a debit card that acts as a credit card but draws from your account. Is this uncommon in Europe? I haven't owned a credit card in maybe 10 years, but have used my bank cards for just about everything as a Visa purchase.

-Erik

This is one of the small culture shocks you experience when moving between countries. In germany it is still very uncommon to pay by credit card. Large department stores or jewellers allow them, but try to use it in a small store and you run into problems. The 2.5% credit card charge is a big hurdle that stores are reluctant to pay for their customers, and customers are reluctant to pay it for the stores. It just never caught on.

On one visit 4 years ago I had become anglizised enough to carry only limited cash but mut my trusty logo-encrusted credit card, which I had used in the US/UK to buy mints for a few pennies as well as a car for rather a few more. What could go wrong? So at the checkout I had a large armful of clothing, painfully picked out over several hours (how come we almost come to blows when my wife and I go to buy clothes for me? :) ) put that card on the counter and were stuck. I had 6 cards from two different banks, no avail. In the end my wife had to stay as surety, I ran to the nearest bank, got cash off the card (paying those 2.5%, of course :(), ran back and paid cash.

The card issued (and widely used) there is the EC card, which is akin to a debit card, but usually does not (or did not use to, at least) work well in other (non-Euro) countries.

One thing I'd like to add about the Cravel.net stuff is that when it first got announced I was lukewarm. If it had not been bundled I might not have gone for it - I just could not see what's so great about it. Boy has that changed. I look at demos (after tough rooms) all the time and my game has really improved for it, downloading new holds is so simple its already worth it, in short, I would not want to do without it anymore. I will certainly sign up for it again. :smile

Cheers,
Rothro

PS: Note that I have had only sporadic contact with germany over the last decade, things may have changed - please correct me in this case.

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06-10-2005 at 09:00 AM
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DeamonMonkey
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Personally I think 12 bucks for 4 new official holds a year, is a great price. I love the story and puzzle mix, and want to see it continue.

Then again, I live in the US and it's not a problem to buy things online.

Is it possible for the international customers to just send cash?
06-10-2005 at 11:10 PM
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Banjooie
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Well, the bank I deal with isn't combined with a credit card, so.

--though, if I don't get JtRH by the end of June, I think I just won't bother.
06-10-2005 at 11:57 PM
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ErikH2000
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DeamonMonkey wrote:
Is it possible for the international customers to just send cash?
This is a possibility I'm looking into with a second payment processor. I'm conducting a little trial with them now. So far so good.

-Erik

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06-11-2005 at 12:09 AM
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leroy00
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leroy00 wrote:
This thread is explicitly not meant to discuss the values of CaravelNet or the monetary equivalent to its ideal and labour-derived value. I think everyone here knows that it represents a lot of work, past and future, and probably all of us enjoy its features.
...
While I would be willing to pay for the subscription per se (I mean, it's only $1 per month!), the difficulty of making the payment is somewhere between annoying and prohibitive. The effort was worth it to get an original first-run JtRH-CD, but I would think twice before getting a second subscription to CaravelNet.

Secondly, I would be willing to pay, I dunno, $20 extra for a life-time subscription.
...
It seems a lot of people have missed the point of what I was saying, rothro excepted. Maybe those were knee-jerk reactions? ;) Let me sum it up: I would like for it to be an option to pay a (relatively large) lump sum and obtain a longer CaravelNet subscription rather paying once a year, simply because the process is expensive/labourous for me (and probably for others living in Europe).
-leroy

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06-13-2005 at 06:59 AM
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ErikH2000
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leroy00 wrote:
It seems a lot of people have missed the point of what I was saying, rothro excepted. Maybe those were knee-jerk reactions? ;) Let me sum it up: I would like for it to be an option to pay a (relatively large) lump sum and obtain a longer CaravelNet subscription rather paying once a year, simply because the process is expensive/labourous for me (and probably for others living in Europe).
-leroy
I feel uncomfortable offering CaravelNet beyond a year or two in the future. If for some reason the idea fails or the plan needs to change in some drastic way, then I've taken money for something that will be difficult or perhaps undesirable to provide. Committing to a year at a time is about my speed right now.

-Erik

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06-13-2005 at 07:49 AM
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leroy00
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ErikH2000 wrote:

I feel uncomfortable offering CaravelNet beyond a year or two in the future. If for some reason the idea fails or the plan needs to change in some drastic way, then I've taken money for something that will be difficult or perhaps undesirable to provide. Committing to a year at a time is about my speed right now.

-Erik
Well, that's understandable, and no-one really plans that far, as I said, but after two years, I'd consider my $25 or what-have-you amortised. I was thinking along the lines of a disclaimer to the effect of "There is no guarantee for service after two years" or so. You mentioned cash ... it would be extra work for you, but one thing which would certainly be a nice option for me is sending USD-currency travellers' cheques to your address. I can get those from my house bank without much run-around. Thanks for keeping your eyes open to alternatives, because I'm really looking forward to CaravelNet going 100%.

-leroy

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06-13-2005 at 11:39 AM
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jamie
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leroy00 wrote:
Let me sum it up: I would like for it to be an option to pay a (relatively large) lump sum and obtain a longer CaravelNet subscription rather paying once a year, simply because the process is expensive/labourous for me (and probably for others living in Europe).
-leroy

Don't you have a friend in your country with a credit card who you could pay with cash/cheque ?

Or, even contact a fellow drodie via the forum !

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06-13-2005 at 11:41 AM
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jamie wrote:
Don't you have a friend in your country with a credit card who you could pay with cash/cheque ?

Or, even contact a fellow drodie via the forum !
I'm trustworthy! You can make all checks payable to me, and I can assure you that they'll make their way to Erik... eventually...

EDIT: I don't know who modded this down, but just as clarification it was meant as a joke. I don't actually expect (or want) anyone to start writing out checks to me.

[Edited by Malarame at Local Time:06-14-2005 at 06:54 PM]

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06-13-2005 at 01:50 PM
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Heheh, not to be an ass, but the news this month reminded me of a Futurama Episode.

Bender: Now how about a rose for the lady? Five bucks a pop!
Gary: I'll take one!
Fry: Oh yeah! Well I want one too!
Bender: Eight bucks.
Fry: But you just said -
Bender: Demand suddenly skyrocketed, you all saw it!

Not that I am complaining, as CaravelNet is a great service, and with more to come, paying so little is certainly justifiable.

[Edited by Saqqara at Local Time:06-14-2005 at 10:09 PM]

[Edited by Saqqara at Local Time:06-14-2005 at 10:10 PM]
06-14-2005 at 10:07 PM
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ErikH2000
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I don't claim to understand Branagan's Law--I merely enforce it.

-Erik

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06-14-2005 at 10:55 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Rothro is quite right. The Caravel 1 year expansion costs (about) 10,50 Euro. Am I right. Now Plimus charges 7 Euro transfer fee, 3 Euro manual processing fee, and my bank charges additional 10 Euros. So 1 year caravell costs about 30 Euro / year for me (and for most guys living in Europe). :-O

And whats good about Caravel standalone ? Caravel with Drod JtrH or TCB is awesome but without one of those rather useless. Why dont let Caravel stay free and increase the price for TBC at 40% ? You would still get enough money and spare the effort of you and us to extend CaravelNet services.

Or why dont offer a 2 year subscription as mentioned above and only give a Garantie for 1 year ? So the additional costs wont be 66% of the total costs.
[Edited by MeckMeck GRE at Local Time:06-15-2005 at 08:06 AM]

[Edited by MeckMeck GRE at Local Time:06-15-2005 at 08:08 AM]
06-15-2005 at 08:02 AM
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jamie
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Well, I'm in Europe (UK) and I don't get any of those extra charges you describe...

It mind sound glib, but if I did, I'd change banks!

What country are you in ? Aren't you in the EU ?

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06-15-2005 at 09:59 AM
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jamie wrote:
Well, I'm in Europe (UK) and I don't get any of those extra charges you describe...

It mind sound glib, but if I did, I'd change banks!

What country are you in ? Aren't you in the EU ?
Well, that is an option as long as there is a difference between banks. In Germany, there is no way to carry out a direct money transfer to a bank outside the EU without having to pay a fee. Similarly, there is a large fee for cashing cheques drawn on a non-EU bank. Also, all banks charge a yearly fee for a credit card, which isn't worth it if you only want to renew a CaravelNet subscription once a year. It is possible that some of the "virtual banks" whose only means of doing business is via internet and which don't maintain any branches at all offer a credit card with no fee. I haven't really looked into that. It is sort of a quasi-monopolistic situation, in that no bank wants to break stride with the others, and why should they if they lose money doing so? And to answer another point above, I only know one person who has a (non-employer-issue) credit card, and , obviously, I already annoyed him to get my copy of JtRH. :?

I suspect that the forum population is skewed relative to the actual player base to a younger age, but lots of forumites are minors, meaning suggestions along the line of "change banks and get a credit card" don't help them any further.

But you're really missing the point of what I was saying. I was pointing out the fact that various aspects of the process would make be prohibitive to a renewal of CaravelNet for lots of people. It isn't only a question of "Is it at all possible for people to do this, regardless of the amount of effort required" but rather "How can we, with a reasonable amount of effort/cost keep our customer base as large as possible", and relatively small changes in the amount of effort required for the customer can result in relatively large changes in the amount of customers reached. All of us here want to see the DROD Project be a success as a whole. I wasn't demanding any action on the point, but rather trying to sensibilise the powers that be to this fact, which has now been done. It seems Erik has been looking into other methods of payment (see above), which is A Good Thing, and he is also interested in finding a solution, so I think this topic has been pretty much dried out.

-leroy

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06-15-2005 at 11:15 AM
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jamie
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Yeah, ok, fair points.

I think it's the same for me with money transfers actually - I guess I was just thinking about credit cards.

Thanks for the reply.


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06-15-2005 at 08:37 PM
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ErikH2000
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Okay, we have a backup payment processor now. There are some things about it that make it more difficult to use than Plimus so I'm not going to promote it equally. It is also confusing on an order form to have a fork with two or more payment processors. What I'll probably do is put a little note saying something on the order form "like more payment options are available, please e-mail me for details".

New payment options from those offered through Plimus:
* PayPal
* Maestro (not Maestro Euro)
* Carte Blanche
* Switch/Solo
* Optima
* Cash (USD, Euro, GBP)
* Deposit with Deutsch Bank (for the German folks out there)

If anyone would like to order using one of these other payment options, please e-mail me (erikh@caravelgames.com) and I will set it up.

Now you have it all! No more complaints! ;)

-Erik

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06-16-2005 at 12:13 AM
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gamer_extreme_101
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I like the sound of cash for me, as that will make it infinitely much easier than annoying my parents to have to use a credit card and such.

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06-16-2005 at 12:25 AM
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ErikH2000
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Yeah, but it is the riskiest way to pay. Different people in the delivery process can latch onto it. The processor wants people to send cash certified or something where a signature is required by them to show they received it.

-Erik

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06-16-2005 at 12:35 AM
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StuartK
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ErikH2000 wrote:
New payment options from those offered through Plimus:

* Maestro (not Maestro Euro)
* Switch/Solo
In the UK at least, Switch merged with/was subsumed by Maestro recently. I don't know the difference between Maestro and Maestro Euro. If it means 'Maestro cards in Europe' I wouldn't be able to use my debit card.

Now you have it all! No more complaints! ;)
O:-

[Last edited by StuartK at 06-21-2005 01:34 AM]
06-16-2005 at 02:51 AM
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ErikH2000
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StuartK wrote:
In the UK at least, Switch merged with/was subsumed by Maestro recently. I don't know the difference between Maestro and Maestro Euro. If it means 'Maestro cards in Europe' I wouldn't be able to use my debit card.
I'm not sure if it means that or not. BTW, if you Maestro card has a MasterCard logo on it, it should go fine on Plimus.

I want to issue everyone a DROD Visa and be done with it.

-Erik

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06-16-2005 at 03:15 AM
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