larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1917
Registered: 12-09-2004
IP: Logged

I was just reading the thread on tar covering trapdoors and thought maybe people could write what design elements they dislike most.

1. Regarding car/mud covering things. I definitely would like to see through tar/mud whether we could use transparency or another bitmap file.

2. Another gripe I have is "orb abuse".

DO NOT use tons of orbs when:
they affect doors that aren't obvious
they open/close/toggle a row of doors to make a puzzle
they force you to go back and forth and back and...

Phweengee
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 03-02-2004
IP: Logged

I can partially agree with the tar/mud argument. If the trap doors are covered over when you begin the room, it can mean there's a lot of trial and error involved. If the tar/mud expands over trap doors as the room progresses, well, all bets are off, cuz you can take notes if you want to.

As for orbs, I disagree. Orbs are completely predictable now with the option of clicking on them to see what they do. The Eight Gates of Bill puzzle might be a little tired, but I'm sure there's a variety of other puzzle ideas that can be done with orbbed doors.

Just my two cents... er... greckles.

____________________________
-Phweengee

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

File: The Worst Hold Ever.hold (2.4 KB)
Downloaded 115 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I did this a while ago, but never posted it beyond the JtRH beta people - but since we are discussing bad hold designs, this one's pretty terrible (intentionally).

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Loving that hold there Eytanz .

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3300
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

I'm working on transparent JtRH bitmaps for tar and mud at the moment. I'm around 40% done with them and I shall post them after I'm finished.

kzc
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 212
Registered: 04-21-2005
IP: Logged

Phweengee wrote:
As for orbs, I disagree. Orbs are completely predictable now with the option of clicking on them to see what they do. The Eight Gates of Bill puzzle might be a little tired, but I'm sure there's a variety of other puzzle ideas that can be done with orbbed doors.

Sure, orbs are predictable, but they're not that enjoyable. I love "A Quiet Place", but rooms like this one are just annoying to me. Yes, I know I have to do but it's pure tedium to actually work it out. The only reason I am persevering is because I know there's going to be good stuff in the rest of the hold. Similarly for the whole first level of "Bavato's Dungeon".

Other things that are more tedious than enjoyable:
1)numerous items hidden under tar/mud, especially when compounded by the presence of mothers.

2)Q, W, Q, W, Q, W,.....................

3)having to figure out the exact place and orientation in which to situate a decoy.

I think it's only fair to also point out what costitutes a good design:
1)Any puzzle that makes you think it's impossible, but then you have a sudden epiphany and the solution becomes obvious. KDD, L2 1S 3E was an early and simple example. "There's no way to get through those furshlugginer force arrows!"

2)Using familiar game elements in unfamiliar ways. "The Fool's Errand" is the canonical example, I suppose. Of course, this does not include trivial ways such as replacing walls with null orbs.

3)Once the player understands how to beat the room, the actual mechanics of it should not be overly challenging. Of course, it's fair to lure the player into a wrong idea about how to beat it, and thereby into a challenging/impossible snipe hunt, but the true solution should come by revelation, not through drudgery.

4)Well-designed multi-room puzzles, ala
It should go without saying that this is all my opinion, which I don't necessarily expect others to share.


[Edited by kzc at Local Time:06-03-2005 at 05:15 PM]

[Edited by kzc at Local Time:06-03-2005 at 05:22 PM]

[Edited by kzc at Local Time:06-03-2005 at 05:23 PM: Rrrrrr, stupid incomplete UBB code]

[Edited by kzc at Local Time:06-03-2005 at 05:36 PM: Rrrrrr, stupid OCD]

Phweengee
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 03-02-2004
IP: Logged

Well, I can agree with you on the picture of the room you posted. There's no puzzle element to it, just a tedious chore to open gates.

____________________________
-Phweengee

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Phweengee wrote:
Well, I can agree with you on the picture of the room you posted. There's no puzzle element to it, just a tedious chore to open gates.

Um, sure there's a puzzle element to it. You need to open the doors in the right order, or you won't be able to open them all. And the room gives you a hint; it's not a puzzle I enjoyed much - and it doesn't fit in with the rest of the level very well - but it's hardly a mere tedious task.



____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Please stop using wraithwings in rooms that only allow you to traverse trapdoors. It's not funny.

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I'd just like to point out that rooms tedious to some may not be tedious to others. Some people *love* tar/mud+trapdoor rooms, or orb guess rooms.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Hatlore
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 42
Registered: 10-13-2004
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
Please stop using wraithwings

I agree with you whole heartedly up through the 4th word.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Hey, there are perfectly legitimate uses for wraithwings. I really don't mind 'em when you're only dealing with solid ground. If I really have a choice, I wanna deal with 5-6 rows of wraithwings instead of 5-6 rows of roaches, because it's more entertaining.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Wraithwings are really interesting because they won't hurt you until another wraithwing comes. I need to break out some holds to see if anyone else has come up witht he same thing, but I can think of a few ideas for wraithwings off the top of my head.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

Phweengee
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 03-02-2004
IP: Logged

eytanz wrote:

Um, sure there's a puzzle element to it. You need to open the doors in the right order, or you won't be able to open them all. And the room gives you a hint; it's not a puzzle I enjoyed much - and it doesn't fit in with the rest of the level very well - but it's hardly a mere tedious task.

My bad. I took a look at the room, and without having played it, assumed I understood how the room worked. You know what they say about assume.

____________________________
-Phweengee

swann_88
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 87
Registered: 06-29-2003
IP: Logged

I liked the modified knights tour

this is a better example of an orb puzzle I hate
all the doors under tar and a large combination of choices of orbs and which order to hit them



also from a quiet place
not because its the only or worst example
just because its the hold I am playing right now

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Wait, isn't this a puzzle where you need to collect information elsewhere on the level to get the solution?

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1377
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Yeah, thats a completely different story whatsoever. If you had to do that by guessing, that would be ridiculous.. but its 100% puzzle, no guesswork.

jdyer
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 331
Registered: 03-19-2003
IP: Logged

Heh, I guess I better put in a word, eh?

I dithered on L5 2N 1E a long time, and than said 'what the heck'. I think the issue here is not the classical 'it's an orb problem' but that there's a puzzle thinking shift involved that's a little too off the typical DROD track. There is actually a fairly elegant way to work out the right path because the tour is incomplete, but when one's head is in "DROD-mode" it's in an entirely different category than expected.

I have no regrets about the monsterless level. The entire design led up to that and it should be obvious fairly quickly to players there is a change in pace involved.

There's also a fairly elegant 'collect the clues' level in Phil's Dungeon, just to pull another example.

kzc
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 212
Registered: 04-21-2005
IP: Logged

The title of this thread is unfortunate. I didn't mean to imply that, e.g., the particular room I complained about is "bad design", but rather that it doesn't appeal to me.

But since you're reading, jdyer, I could do without the restricted movement trapdoor rooms on level 5 as well.

And when's your next hold coming out?

jdyer
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 331
Registered: 03-19-2003
IP: Logged

kzc wrote:
And when's your next hold coming out?

Still going to take a while. I think I'm going to pass on voice acting but I've got a lot of other Stuff to deal with. I'll make another progress bar when I have more of a grasp on just how much progress I need to do to get to the end.

The plot is a sequel to A Quiet Place. The set of main puzzle themes is somewhat different. A Quiet Place was an experiment in restrictions. This one's an experiment in -- well, something else.

Testing will be private again so expect it not to show up until the final version.

kzc
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 212
Registered: 04-21-2005
IP: Logged

Oh, and as a belated, unrelated P.S.:

In the room I singled out, "The way of the moving horse" threw me for a few seconds because I recognize it as a term from the game of go rather than